2015 Pilot Discussion.

[cactusboy53]

The United States District Court of the Ninth Curcuit then ruled:
 
US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit                                                                       26 June 2015
 

“…USAPA has served as the stalking horse for the East Pilots’ exclusive interests and left the West Pilots bereft of representation.  USAPA’s manifest disregard for the interests of the West Pilots and its discriminatory conduct towards them constitutes a clear breach of duty.  Accordingly, we reverse the district court’s conclusion that USAPA did not breach its duty of fair representation, and remand with instructions to enjoin USAPA from participating in the McCaskill-Bond proceedings except to the extent that USAPA will advocate the Nicolau Award..”

 

[cactusboy53]

Ahhhhh....the "smoking gun":
 
[SIZE=12pt]From “A Conversation with an Attorney” - between Bradford &  Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm (Chris Katzenbach point):  “Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.” [/SIZE]
 

[SIZE=12pt]This in response to Bradford saying the following:  “I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent as an avenue of advance to get around this award…”[/SIZE]

 

[cactusboy53]

If quoting from respected jurists, judges, and arbitrators is "melting down".......  well then:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPO43kCh3_c

 

[luvthe9]

Oh boy, Davey has gone over the edge..........where is the PHX update letter you promised us all, That is always good for a laugh.




You keep on swinging flounder.......that's what you do best...........going to be "epic" Dorothy

 

[cactusboy53]

Remember, el Presidente' Mike Cleary WARNED you first and best:
 
“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”
 
US Airwaves June/July 2000
US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)

 

 

[cactusboy53]

Oh boy, Davey has gone over the edge..........where is the PHX update letter you promised us all, That is always good for a laugh.

You keep on swinging flounder

 
Ooooh.. that one really hurt Johnny Boy. 
 
[SIZE=12pt]Freund:   Okay.  And would it be fair to say that in looking at this slide, if one were to take the American pilots out, what we would see would be Rick Brown's substituted judgment as the new George Nicolau with respect to the relationship between the East pilots and the West pilots?[/SIZE]
 

[SIZE=12pt]Rick Brown SLI cross-examination                                                                      January 06, 2016[/SIZE]

 

[luvthe9]

Remember, el Presidente' Mike Cleary WARNED you first and best:
 
The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Boards Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPAs President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA. No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.
 
US Airwaves June/July 2000
US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)

Remember, "el Presidente". Mike Cleary cleaned your clock big time..........expect more time in the fishbowl.



Wye River............mistake tof the decade...

 

[nic4us]

Let us quote another source adage, "A lottery ticket you can not cash'" quote that Dave!

 
You paraphrase Kirby, but two points to make.
 
First, the uscaba supporters took that bait hook line and sinker!
 
Second, the Nic was much less like a "lottery ticket" and much more like a structured settlement, and we just sold it to the BOA for cash now!

 

[nic4us]

You flunked math also Dave, a3% raise was less than a 40% raise for our attrition!

 
Q...How does a mid level 320 captain, who would have gone from $125/hr to $168/hr with an extra 17 days vacation get a 40% raise from attrition when they retire after 8 years of the scab union as a upper mid level 320 captain making the same $125/hr.
 
A...They do not!  They lose $400,000 plus the 12% company 401k contributions (another $50k).
 
 
Your attrition argument is pure BS.  The Nic gave the east the top 517 and then a ratio that also favored the east.  In other words you would have still had the attrition with the Nic.

 

[nic4us]

 
And the Ninth said this:
 
[SIZE=12pt]We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Opinion[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Case: 09-16564 06/04/2010[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]For the legally obtuse......the court was telling you that the predecessor (ALPA) was NOT free to abandon the Nicolau Seniority List, and thus USAPA was NOT free to abandon the Nicolau Seniority List.[/SIZE]

 

 
I had a different take on that quote.
 
I saw that as the court saying the union could negotiate a new list within the confines of the DFR.
 
However, you are correct in that ALPA could not unilaterally abandon the Nic and remain true to its C&BLs, and uscaba had absolutely no way to avoid the DFR had they gotten a non-Nic list ratified in a contract.
 
The company knew this, and that is why the company never negotiated with the scab union, and (here is the huge part) the company stayed well within their "negotiate in good faith" mandate by simply telling uscaba to "F" off until they are willing to accept the NIc.

 

[nic4us]

Remember, "el Presidente". Mike Cleary cleaned your clock big time..........expect more time in the fishbowl.



Wye River............mistake tof the decade...

 
Really...cleaned clocks eh?
 
So why did he come groveling to Ferguson in DFW?
 
 
Wye river was ALPA's mistake of the decade, not the West's.
 
You do realize the ALPA executive counsel ordered the president to turn over the Nic?  

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Q...How does a mid level 320 captain, who would have gone from $125/hr to $168/hr with an extra 17 days vacation get a 40% raise from attrition when they retire after 8 years of the scab union as a upper mid level 320 captain making the same $125/hr.
 
A...They do not!  They lose $400,000 plus the 12% company 401k contributions (another $50k).
 
 
Your attrition argument is pure BS.  The Nic gave the east the top 517 and then a ratio that also favored the east.  In other words you would have still had the attrition with the Nic.

Really...cleaned clocks eh?
 
So why did he come groveling to Ferguson in DFW?
 
 
Wye river was ALPA's mistake of the decade, not the West's.
 
You do realize the ALPA executive counsel ordered the president to turn over the Nic?

Q...How does a mid level 320 captain, who would have gone from $125/hr to $168/hr with an extra 17 days vacation get a 40% raise from attrition when they retire after 8 years of the scab union as a upper mid level 320 captain making the same $125/hr.
 
A...They do not!  They lose $400,000 plus the 12% company 401k contributions (another $50k).
 
 
Your attrition argument is pure BS.  The Nic gave the east the top 517 and then a ratio that also favored the east.  In other words you would have still had the attrition with the Nic.

Now how much attrition have you had out west? The East retires a pilot bout every 3 days west maybe 2 a month in a good year that mid level 320 Capt hired bout 10 years before you would have stagnated! I see you flunked math also!

 

[luvthe9]

Really...cleaned clocks eh?
 
So why did he come groveling to Ferguson in DFW?
 
 
Wye river was ALPA's mistake of the decade, not the West's.
 
You do realize the ALPA executive counsel ordered the president to turn over the Nic?

Nice try junior............keep trying to spin everything, someday you'll be out of the fishbowl




NICless of course

 

[cactusboy53]

Oooh...another zinger Johnny Boy. You're top drawer today. I guess I'll have find more quotes from seasoned & respected arbitrators, jurists & judges.

You go back to quoting some ridiculous blog from someone that none of US recognize as an authority.

 

[nic4us]

Now how much attrition have you had out west? The East retires a pilot bout every 3 days west maybe 2 a month in a good year that mid level 320 Capt hired bout 10 years before you would have stagnated! I see you flunked math also!

 
No, s/he would not have stagnated.
 
Lets say you were....oh, lets pick a uscaba supporter with notoriety...lets say you were Sully.
 
You were a senior 320 captain Pre-Nic,  then Post-Nic you are a senior 320 captain with ZERO West pilots senior to you...you just lost $450k to uscaba!
 
Lets take a less senior 320 captain...say a guy who was 1000 out of the 2800 active east pilots.  Pre-Nic he was 1000....Post-Nic he IS 1150 out of 5400 in a fleet that almost doubled in number of hulls.  Holy crap the injustice!!!!...no stagnation, a huge gain of relative position...but alas, a loss of $450k to uscaba!!!!
 
Face it, over half the east pilots took HUGE finacial losses by forming uscaba, the rest took Large financial losses.  
 
Even the most junior active east pilot took a large financial loss.  Monda, the most junior active east pilot would have still upgraded, just at a later time, approx 2 years.  However, during those two years he would have made much more as an f/o, then when he upgraded he would have made considerably more.
 
 
PS. I did not flunk math.....your unfounded emotional bias against the NIc has clouded all your mathematical insight.