So, what is that, two days cash burn at the current rates? Agonizing about it will end up costing precious time well in excess of the $4MM.
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- Thread Starter
- #17
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On 4/22/2003 4:57:25 PM jimboli wrote:
A bigger question is that the company opened its books and records to the unions and the union''s financial advisors. Why didn''t the financial advisors ask for draft copies of Form 10-K? I find it hard to believe that the first time anyone saw the document is when it was filed with the SEC. It is not like the document is prepared overnight. It was not prepared from 3/31 - 4/15 -- any company starts preparing the document in February due to the level of review (in house accountants, external auditors, outside counsel, etc...) In addition, the outflow of cash would be evident if the financial advisors reviewed the October - December cash flow statements or changes in account balances. What happened?
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Sherry Cooper – STL Base Chair for ALPA seemed to ask the same question of John Ward when she wrote:On 4/22/2003 4:57:25 PM jimboli wrote:
A bigger question is that the company opened its books and records to the unions and the union''s financial advisors. Why didn''t the financial advisors ask for draft copies of Form 10-K? I find it hard to believe that the first time anyone saw the document is when it was filed with the SEC. It is not like the document is prepared overnight. It was not prepared from 3/31 - 4/15 -- any company starts preparing the document in February due to the level of review (in house accountants, external auditors, outside counsel, etc...) In addition, the outflow of cash would be evident if the financial advisors reviewed the October - December cash flow statements or changes in account balances. What happened?
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"I know that you do not care to hear this but when I was part of negotiating team at TWA, we had copies of senior management pensions which we used to negotiate improvements to our own pension plans. This is not Monday morning quarterbacking. As you may recall, there was a resolution that was defeated which would have set up committees to review various items. I was asked by some of you (privately) if I would agree to participate in the pension and bankruptcy committees if they were established. I agreed to do so. This would have been an obvious item to ask for and review."
Makes you wanna go "hmmmmmmm."
Guys,
I think the point here is not the money amount, at least not with me, but rather the lack of integrity. Carty could of announced this ahead of time and put a different spin on it and come out looking like a rose. He could of said that they were not completely funding their pension but rather only at 60% or whatever the number is. He is just not a good leader. Hopefully something will be done that will appease those that are angry and feel betrayed....
I think the point here is not the money amount, at least not with me, but rather the lack of integrity. Carty could of announced this ahead of time and put a different spin on it and come out looking like a rose. He could of said that they were not completely funding their pension but rather only at 60% or whatever the number is. He is just not a good leader. Hopefully something will be done that will appease those that are angry and feel betrayed....
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On 4/22/2003 8:30:02 PM AAStew wrote:
Guys,
I think the point here is not the money amount, at least not with me, but rather the lack of integrity. Carty could of announced this ahead of time and put a different spin on it and come out looking like a rose. He could of said that they were not completely funding their pension but rather only at 60% or whatever the number is. He is just not a good leader. Hopefully something will be done that will appease those that are angry and feel betrayed....
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So what else is new? You already knew he had no integrity, didn''t you?On 4/22/2003 8:30:02 PM AAStew wrote:
Guys,
I think the point here is not the money amount, at least not with me, but rather the lack of integrity. Carty could of announced this ahead of time and put a different spin on it and come out looking like a rose. He could of said that they were not completely funding their pension but rather only at 60% or whatever the number is. He is just not a good leader. Hopefully something will be done that will appease those that are angry and feel betrayed....
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It''s not like your pastor was caught with his hand in the cookie jar, after all, this is Don Carty we''re talking about.
Employees going on and on and on like they just found out that Mother Theresa was an embezzler. So his conduct just confirmed what everyone has been saying about him all along. I''m shocked, shocked I tell ya.
FWAAA
If you do fly up front, you will find it is still the same towards the pax. We F/A''s do this I think because we enjoy it. For us not so young (but not that old), it may be a throw back to when the job was considered glamorous and only the prettiest, friendliest women (girls) were hired. Maybe in our minds that is the game we still play with our pax''s. I love my pax''s and I enjoy what I do. I certainly am not doing it for the money and like the old joke goes: A new F/A was looking all over the airplane for quite a while searching for something, mumbling to herself. Finally the Captain asked her what are you looking for? She angrily retorted back "I am looking for the f@#$%ing glamour they promised me!
If you do fly up front, you will find it is still the same towards the pax. We F/A''s do this I think because we enjoy it. For us not so young (but not that old), it may be a throw back to when the job was considered glamorous and only the prettiest, friendliest women (girls) were hired. Maybe in our minds that is the game we still play with our pax''s. I love my pax''s and I enjoy what I do. I certainly am not doing it for the money and like the old joke goes: A new F/A was looking all over the airplane for quite a while searching for something, mumbling to herself. Finally the Captain asked her what are you looking for? She angrily retorted back "I am looking for the f@#$%ing glamour they promised me!
AAObserver
Member
- Apr 18, 2003
- 89
- 0
AAStew,
That insensitive louse is the lowest paid CEO by far of any major airline. He gave up a chunk of his income whereas even UAL's CEO didn't. So, maybe you're getting year 9 pay for 12 years of service, but Carty is way below even that compared to other CEOs.
And I think we all know that if Carty had brought up the retention bonuses ahead of the time the unions would have had the same furor then as they are having now. .
That insensitive louse is the lowest paid CEO by far of any major airline. He gave up a chunk of his income whereas even UAL's CEO didn't. So, maybe you're getting year 9 pay for 12 years of service, but Carty is way below even that compared to other CEOs.
And I think we all know that if Carty had brought up the retention bonuses ahead of the time the unions would have had the same furor then as they are having now. .
- Thread Starter
- #24
AAStew, you are right on the money. One of the first things you should learn as a CEO is not to give in to the temptation to stall about the facts.
If on day one, he had taken the podium and said:
1. We slipped up on the management bonuses. Frankly boys and girls, we made a mistake and we are here to rectify it. We put this thing in place after 9/11 because of these circumstances and you are absolutely right, we should take it out and we have.
2. The management pension program has been in place since 1985. Much like your pensions, we have chosen to make certain that the employees who have earned it will at least get something if we have to file bankruptcy. We have funded the plan to the tune of $41 million, or 60%, which is at a lower level than any other employee group.
3. The reason we asked for an extension on the filing of documents with the SEC is because we thought if we could get the TAs passed, we could get a clean opinion from the accountants instead of question about the company continuing to be a going concern. The less than clean opinion will cause some of our interest costs to go up, which negatively affects us all.
If he had done this the moment any question was raised, he would have taken the wind out of the sails of his detractors and might have brought a number of people over to his side. By not doing thies things, he lost the initiative and has been playing catch-up ever since.
If on day one, he had taken the podium and said:
1. We slipped up on the management bonuses. Frankly boys and girls, we made a mistake and we are here to rectify it. We put this thing in place after 9/11 because of these circumstances and you are absolutely right, we should take it out and we have.
2. The management pension program has been in place since 1985. Much like your pensions, we have chosen to make certain that the employees who have earned it will at least get something if we have to file bankruptcy. We have funded the plan to the tune of $41 million, or 60%, which is at a lower level than any other employee group.
3. The reason we asked for an extension on the filing of documents with the SEC is because we thought if we could get the TAs passed, we could get a clean opinion from the accountants instead of question about the company continuing to be a going concern. The less than clean opinion will cause some of our interest costs to go up, which negatively affects us all.
If he had done this the moment any question was raised, he would have taken the wind out of the sails of his detractors and might have brought a number of people over to his side. By not doing thies things, he lost the initiative and has been playing catch-up ever since.
Maybe it is time for AA to be dissolved and allow everyone to go their separate ways; after all, the level of hatred for AA management, and in particular for the CEO, has never been higher. AA''s workers'' disdain for their bosses is certainly higher than at any other airline in the US.
How much fun will it be to fly on AA if the concessions are implemented? I like flying in the front of AA''s planes. It''s why AA gets about 95% of my travel budget, and not UA or DL or BA or any of the others. For the most part, the AA people are great. But after all this, will it be the same?
Kinda sad how many posters keep assuring everyone here that they have something better lined up and that they really don''t need AA. But on the other hand, the despair of many AA employees comes thru loud and clear: Nobody has lined up a gig quite as sweet as their current one at AA, when you factor in the pay and benefits and relatively light workload.
If they did have something better, they''d be fleeing like rats off a sinking ship, not threatening to send the company into the waiting arms of the bankruptcy lawyers and greedy bankers and consultants. You know, the reason the pain will be about half a billion worse in Ch 11.
One thing''s for sure: Carty''s retention bonus in Ch 11 is likely to be about $10 million per year (or more), paid currently. See Tilton''s deal and add some dollars, if you doubt it. He won''t need his deferred comp (Pension Trust), since he''ll take his cash now from the wounded AA in Ch 11.
Good luck to all. Especially those who will find themselves starting over at the bottom of some other airline''s seniority list. That''s gonna suck a lot more than any paycuts at AA. Even with a horse''s ass as CEO.
Of course, if there''s any justice, another airline will buy AA like AA bought TWA and just staple everyone below the just-hired native 21 year olds.
How much fun will it be to fly on AA if the concessions are implemented? I like flying in the front of AA''s planes. It''s why AA gets about 95% of my travel budget, and not UA or DL or BA or any of the others. For the most part, the AA people are great. But after all this, will it be the same?
Kinda sad how many posters keep assuring everyone here that they have something better lined up and that they really don''t need AA. But on the other hand, the despair of many AA employees comes thru loud and clear: Nobody has lined up a gig quite as sweet as their current one at AA, when you factor in the pay and benefits and relatively light workload.
If they did have something better, they''d be fleeing like rats off a sinking ship, not threatening to send the company into the waiting arms of the bankruptcy lawyers and greedy bankers and consultants. You know, the reason the pain will be about half a billion worse in Ch 11.
One thing''s for sure: Carty''s retention bonus in Ch 11 is likely to be about $10 million per year (or more), paid currently. See Tilton''s deal and add some dollars, if you doubt it. He won''t need his deferred comp (Pension Trust), since he''ll take his cash now from the wounded AA in Ch 11.
Good luck to all. Especially those who will find themselves starting over at the bottom of some other airline''s seniority list. That''s gonna suck a lot more than any paycuts at AA. Even with a horse''s ass as CEO.
Of course, if there''s any justice, another airline will buy AA like AA bought TWA and just staple everyone below the just-hired native 21 year olds.
I don''t know what to say, you are right, but then again we were not asked to sacrifice 25% of our earnings as a shared effort.
I have worked for the company 12 years with my pay at the 9 year level because of leaves.With the new t/a I was guaranteed a base salary of $24,000 a year., this does not include all the increases for my benefit payments plus the cuts in work rules and per diem etc. AS you can see we gave up alot from nothing. How can he CARTY be such an insensitive louse. After awhile, you just don''t care because the truth is, I could make more money waitressing! Even as a teacher I made more in starting salary 12 years ago! ANd here I was voting yes in order to help AMR, well now why should I care?
I have worked for the company 12 years with my pay at the 9 year level because of leaves.With the new t/a I was guaranteed a base salary of $24,000 a year., this does not include all the increases for my benefit payments plus the cuts in work rules and per diem etc. AS you can see we gave up alot from nothing. How can he CARTY be such an insensitive louse. After awhile, you just don''t care because the truth is, I could make more money waitressing! Even as a teacher I made more in starting salary 12 years ago! ANd here I was voting yes in order to help AMR, well now why should I care?
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On 4/22/2003 8:49:34 PM BDLDFW wrote:
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He could have been truthful.We would not have liked it, but it would have been accepted.On 4/22/2003 8:49:34 PM BDLDFW wrote:
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Carty could of announced this ahead of time and put a different spin on it and come out looking like a rose.
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Not likely. There's nothing that Carty could've said ahead of time that would've been accepted.Carty could of announced this ahead of time and put a different spin on it and come out looking like a rose.
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gogogadget
Advanced
- Aug 21, 2002
- 140
- 0
This just goes round and round..........
Any person that runs a multi billion dollar company deserves to receive a good wage commensurate with the position. So do most of the other top executives at these companies. That does not give them the right to take from their employees to keep their own pockets filled in times like these. How many times have we been told that we are looking at every aspect and cutting costs everywhere?
I remember being told in an HI6 message that we should walk inside the terminal to purchase h20 out of our own pockets to supply the flight with provisions when catering didnt fill the order correctly. Rather than face a $40-50 delivery charge for bottles of water! Who negotiated this contract with catering? But yet, the company slaps us with a term 1113 sheet durring the last hours of negotions describing how desperate we are and what the creditors will demand of us in BK (of which terms had not even been completed) and how every little dollar counts, yet they dont have a problem robbing from the poor and giving to the rich?
Tell me this, anyone. The comparison has been made about pilots slaries and I hear comparison to workers in other contries compared to here, I even hear foreign nationals make less than our regular F/A''s. Do you think at CEO that has been making 10''s of millions of dollars even needs a pension or even a retention bonus? What will he do with it? At some point in life, money is just a thing.
If this stand proves anything, it shows that we little people are fed up with being treated like crap by management, and the Government, especially in this economy and day and age. There isnt an American I know that would just lay down and give up our country and our freedoms because we were threatened.
Any person that runs a multi billion dollar company deserves to receive a good wage commensurate with the position. So do most of the other top executives at these companies. That does not give them the right to take from their employees to keep their own pockets filled in times like these. How many times have we been told that we are looking at every aspect and cutting costs everywhere?
I remember being told in an HI6 message that we should walk inside the terminal to purchase h20 out of our own pockets to supply the flight with provisions when catering didnt fill the order correctly. Rather than face a $40-50 delivery charge for bottles of water! Who negotiated this contract with catering? But yet, the company slaps us with a term 1113 sheet durring the last hours of negotions describing how desperate we are and what the creditors will demand of us in BK (of which terms had not even been completed) and how every little dollar counts, yet they dont have a problem robbing from the poor and giving to the rich?
Tell me this, anyone. The comparison has been made about pilots slaries and I hear comparison to workers in other contries compared to here, I even hear foreign nationals make less than our regular F/A''s. Do you think at CEO that has been making 10''s of millions of dollars even needs a pension or even a retention bonus? What will he do with it? At some point in life, money is just a thing.
If this stand proves anything, it shows that we little people are fed up with being treated like crap by management, and the Government, especially in this economy and day and age. There isnt an American I know that would just lay down and give up our country and our freedoms because we were threatened.
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