AFA topic 9/28-11/1 Do NOT make it personal

[LCC_#1]

Who in the hell wants 10 hour 1 days? I don't know of anyone begging for that. Think again.

Work 8 days for 80 hours? Where do I sign up? Believe me, that kind of trip will far surpass TA, current one days, or 2 day red eyes!

 

[WCT]

Okay, this company has not communicated whatsover the crisis for our RESERVE flight attendants in Phoenix. Flight attendants are being forced back on RSV that were hired in early 2000!!! Some are in crisis mode!! 🙁 Over 600 RSV's!! Most of our RSV's NEVER get called out and can't afford to pay there bills at 70hrs and NO PER DIEM!
IS PHX the only base getting screwed in all the cuts?? Are the East fa's seeing a reduction in flying, and more people being forced back on RSV??? LAS has already affected our flying for PHX based fa's BIG TIME!! Now they are shrinking PHX and just adding RSV lines every month!! AUTOING trips like crazy so they don't have to pay the higher scales and give to reserves. No pay parity for US West fa's making WAY LESS then our East counterparts!!! What gives Doug?!!! I thought we were becoming ONE COMPANY???????????? What about US in PHX?
NO contract in sight??!! Shame!! Shame!! :down: :down: 🙄

 

[Zarah]

Have you given thought to the fact that if the "me too" clause is eliminated that there would be a need for more FA hiring required to support the operation? This, in turn, would allow those who have been on Reserve for years to potentially become blockholders. In addition, it allows for increased single-day credit flying for all FAs.

Ya, it is all fun and games until those high time one days have you going up and down the east coast all day long.

Here is how I see this impacting me as a reserve.

High time trip is in open time. Another block holder and/or reserve picks it up. Then around 1 a.m. they call off the trip. My phone rings at 5 a.m. and I am given the trip. I lug myself on this wonderful high time trip - whoo hoo - drag my tired self into the house and go to bed. Rinse and repeat. This happens all the time in the spring with Island Turns.

While it may be all fun and games for block holders, it does nothing for reserves unless we can pick it up on ETB. I have a life and a
3 1/2 year old at home. So before I vote yes for anything that would create a situation where I can be rescheduled and used like a piece of meat, I would want to know what protections are being put in place.

I find your use of a percentage interesting in the slide deployment numbers. At 5% for the WEST that still indicates an increase over last year and for a system that works that should not be happening at all. The number should stay the same and/or go down - not rise. The problem with monitor and challenge is that the company failed to sell it to the FA group on the EAST as well as they sold it to the FA group on the WEST.

ISDs cost the company a lot of money and create unsafe working conditions for employees outside the AC. Certainly something we should all be concerned about. I agree with another poster who indicated we should have harsher punishments. Perhaps that will help sell the M&C to the FAs.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Okay, this company has not communicated whatsover the crisis for our RESERVE flight attendants in Phoenix. Flight attendants are being forced back on RSV that were hired in early 2000!!! Some are in crisis mode!! 🙁 Over 600 RSV's!! Most of our RSV's NEVER get called out and can't afford to pay there bills at 70hrs and NO PER DIEM!
IS PHX the only base getting screwed in all the cuts?? Are the East fa's seeing a reduction in flying, and more people being forced back on RSV??? LAS has already affected our flying for PHX based fa's BIG TIME!! Now they are shrinking PHX and just adding RSV lines every month!! AUTOING trips like crazy so they don't have to pay the higher scales and give to reserves. No pay parity for US West fa's making WAY LESS then our East counterparts!!! What gives Doug?!!! I thought we were becoming ONE COMPANY???????????? What about US in PHX?
NO contract in sight??!! Shame!! Shame!! :down: :down: 🙄

Worse on the east coast. 1996 is on straight reserve in CLT and PHL. 1999 in the other bases. And FWIW, our 2000 hires have never held a block, so they have been in constant crisis mode.

That said, I know the majority of the cuts in the company are from PHX and LAS, the two bases where the company has identified the most unprofitable flying.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Who in the hell wants 10 hour 1 days? I don't know of anyone begging for that. Think again.

Uhh, probably a majority of the flight attendants out there. 80 hours in 8 days? No brainer there. It would go so senior....

Although, it's good that people enjoy all types of trips; there will always be 20 hour 4 days and 14 hour three day Europe trips...

 

[NoMoreKoolAid]

Were talking 10 hour one days with how many legs and what's the duty day? Wait until it's 7 legs up and down the East coast and people won't think it's so pretty then. These 14 hour duty days are BS. Everyone assume this is a 2 leg gig only. If you want to fly yourself raggid go ahead but not at my expense. I won't vote for that. I say up the rigs and pay like MetroJet.

 

[jimntx]

As a fellow f/a at AA, I can't help but comment here. First off, here at AA we can be scheduled to 13 hours on-duty with up to 15 hours on-duty allowed for off-schedule operations (OSO)--mx/wx delays. Admittedly, we very rarely have more than 4 legs/day, but 13 hours on duty is 13 hours on duty.

We have some 10+ (flight hours) turns--LAX-HNL-LAX, for instance--which go very senior because they comprise a 6-7 day month. However, they are not plotted back to back for days on end.

When you are on reserve and you are working those things with a minimum 12-hour rest in between trips day after day, the body wears down really fast.

Plus, the really senior f/as here at AA who used to be based at BNA and worked trips from BNA-LGA that had 10 legs to LGA and 4 legs back (with a layover in between) will tell you that 10 takeoffs and landings a day are a lot more tiring than a 10 hour single leg flight.

 

[safety stud]

All of you are missing the point.... It's change....
Unless change is good for all it's good for none...
The idea of getting rid of the M-T is all about change. There would be both good and bad with doing this. I however have never seen this present management or past for that matter ever follow through with what they say. Remember, Pref. Bid was to be in place when the new RES system was to be introduced. Have you all forgot this. I didn't. One without the other only benefits the company. And look at the RES system now.

The idea of changing the contract for anything less than a drastic improvement from the present condition should not even be discussed unless there are provisions with specific snap backs if the company doesn't do there end of the bargin. That isn't going to happen.

Heres a prime example of the present mangangement....

I heard "Sandcastle" signed a 20 year agreement with Allegheny County for the present 8 gates in PIT. That within itself seems to look great. The problem is the county wants to move the 8 gates to the A concourse and shut off B completely. Since the county has shut down the gates past 36, they still have to provide utilities to the whole concourse. Sandcastle told the county that under no circumstances would they move, and if they tried.... They would pull out of PIT completely. So there... Who in there right minds goes and makes a statement like that? Someone that is going to negotiate a fair contract for you? I think not...

What we have is broken.. What do we do... Fix it... Not make an overall change.... Fix what's broken...
Stand firm... And be willing to fight for what's fair... Talking.... only works if actions follow...

A more important question you should ask yourself is... Am I willing to vote down a contract.... Am I willing to do CHAOS... Am I willing to walk the PICKET Line... Because if you aren't.... Don't bother posting your opinions...... Words are cheap...

The company will have a fight on their hands with this next contract.... We either unite... or fall...

We decide the fate of our future.....

So listen up CLT, BOS, PHL, LGA, DCA, and yes PHX...

There was only one base that voted down the last agreement... That was PIT.... You now see how the company handled PIT...
Me - Too Clause...... Not on my watch...

"Show me the MONEY"....

Just my opinion...

 

[songbirdstew]

Okay, this company has not communicated whatsover the crisis for our RESERVE flight attendants in Phoenix. Flight attendants are being forced back on RSV that were hired in early 2000!!! Some are in crisis mode!! 🙁 Over 600 RSV's!! Most of our RSV's NEVER get called out and can't afford to pay there bills at 70hrs and NO PER DIEM!
IS PHX the only base getting screwed in all the cuts?? Are the East fa's seeing a reduction in flying, and more people being forced back on RSV??? LAS has already affected our flying for PHX based fa's BIG TIME!! Now they are shrinking PHX and just adding RSV lines every month!! AUTOING trips like crazy so they don't have to pay the higher scales and give to reserves. No pay parity for US West fa's making WAY LESS then our East counterparts!!! What gives Doug?!!! I thought we were becoming ONE COMPANY???????????? What about US in PHX?
NO contract in sight??!! Shame!! Shame!! :down: :down: 🙄

Welcome to the world of the East. Your post says "Flight attendants are being forced back on RSV that were hired in early 2000!!! " I just spent the last 3 years being forced back on reserve and then booted out when they closed down PIT and my hire date is 1987. We had F/As forced to sell their homes and file bankruptcy.

I'm sorry to break it to you but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't do the same thing to your PHX base. If it doesn't put gas in Doug's chauffer driven Bentley, he doesn't care.

 

[N903AW]

The idea of getting rid of the M-T is all about change. There would be both good and bad with doing this. I however have never seen this present management or past for that matter ever follow through with what they say.

The idea of changing the contract for anything less than a drastic improvement from the present condition should not even be discussed unless there are provisions with specific snap backs if the company doesn't do there end of the bargin. That isn't going to happen.

Me - Too Clause...... Not on my watch...

"Show me the MONEY"....

Just my opinion...

Excellent post, safety stud. The question I would like to pose to those working on the current East contract is this:

Are you willing to wait for the Pilots to ratify their contract so that you can retain the "Me Too" clause that you currently have? As I see it (and I am welcome to any objectionable viewpoints that would reflect otherwise), in order to keep the "Me Too" clause intact it would require a unified Pilot agreement and contract in order for all Flight Attendants to be able to crew our aircraft fleetwide. At the current rate of THAT happening with the Pilot's lawsuits, seniority disagreements, etc., the Flight Attendants could be looking at YEARS before we could possibly operate on a single agreement/contract.

I, personally, would rather forgo your "Me-Too" if it requires a waiting game contingent on an agreement being forged by the Pilots. I would much rather accept a Flight Attendant contract with pay increases, improved flexibility and work rules, retro-pay, etc. We have been on an expired contract for too long and we are already overdue for a new, single agreement. I am just not willing to have our contract agreement held hostage by a Pilot agreement which will not see the light of day for a very, very long time.

 

[N903AW]

Were talking 10 hour one days with how many legs and what's the duty day? Wait until it's 7 legs up and down the East coast and people won't think it's so pretty then. These 14 hour duty days are BS. Everyone assume this is a 2 leg gig only. If you want to fly yourself raggid go ahead but not at my expense. I won't vote for that. I say up the rigs and pay like MetroJet.

If we could negotiate no more than four landings/segments in a single duty day period when pairings are generated by Crew Resources then we wouldn't have to worry about this. Anything over four segements (including diversions) would have to be financially compensated over normal pay rates.

Contract Negotiators??

 

[NoMoreKoolAid]

I, personally, would rather forgo your "Me-Too" if it requires a waiting game contingent on an agreement being forged by the Pilots. I would much rather accept a Flight Attendant contract with pay increases, improved flexibility and work rules, retro-pay, etc. We have been on an expired contract for too long and we are already overdue for a new, single agreement. I am just not willing to have our contract agreement held hostage by a Pilot agreement which will not see the light of day for a very, very long time.

We on the East are not giving up one thing in this contract if not in exchange for the better. You guys on the West never had M-T so of course you are willing to throw it under the bus. Simple way to move forward is AFA negotiate every protection in that M-T into the new agreement and then move forward. If the company wants an agreement they will get one. Again we are not giving up one item including M-T if radical improvements are not made. A few 10 hour one days is not improvement. And that came right from AFA negotiators in the meetings.

 

[flybynite]

I don't understand why people don't get the fact that if you agree to 10 hrs of hard time in a duty day....you'll need less f/a's. That isn't an improvement by any standard.

Nor is it the unions job to help the company come up with ideas to cut personnel.

Me Too clause is too important to lose.

 

[safety stud]

Excellent post, safety stud. The question I would like to pose to those working on the current East contract is this:

Are you willing to wait for the Pilots to ratify their contract so that you can retain the "Me Too" clause that you currently have? As I see it (and I am welcome to any objectionable viewpoints that would reflect otherwise), in order to keep the "Me Too" clause intact it would require a unified Pilot agreement and contract in order for all Flight Attendants to be able to crew our aircraft fleetwide. At the current rate of THAT happening with the Pilot's lawsuits, seniority disagreements, etc., the Flight Attendants could be looking at YEARS before we could possibly operate on a single agreement/contract.

I, personally, would rather forgo your "Me-Too" if it requires a waiting game contingent on an agreement being forged by the Pilots. I would much rather accept a Flight Attendant contract with pay increases, improved flexibility and work rules, retro-pay, etc. We have been on an expired contract for too long and we are already overdue for a new, single agreement. I am just not willing to have our contract agreement held hostage by a Pilot agreement which will not see the light of day for a very, very long time.

You are obviously a pilot on the WEST. So let me let set you down to what I think will happen...

Your question if I am willing to wait for a pilot contract has no bearing on me. The east F/A group is under a contract that is not up for re-newal until 2012. While negotiations have been taking place, the company is under no obligation to get anything ratified until then. Plus if benefits them financially to do so. The present contract represents a 47% benefit cut to the past contract. Since the east far outnumbers the west, its a numbers game on this issue

Secondly, your contract is your contract. You are not under the umbrella of USAPA. Seniority, DOH are your problems and will be resolved seperately. Since the decision to do date of hire for your group is now the focal point of your issues, you will have to work your problems out through negotiations. Regardless of your watchdog group AWAPPA. As dues paying members you will still have to pay your dues through USAPA to remain in good standing with your union. Since the AWAPPA organization is funded through private donations you are really paying twice to be represented. It would behoove you stop with the wrangeling and get on with the show. Besides... You will have a 10 year fence in place... That will quell any judges thoughts of being unfair.

Thirdly, Under the present USAPA agreements the M-T clause is a two sided sword. What effect the pilots effects the flight attendants. In some cases in the past the F/A group negotiated a better health benefit package than the pilots, this effected them making it more beneficial to both. You must also remember on thing. Under your present contract ratification at any level is a simple majority of 50% plus one. The East pilot group far outnumbers the west, so you either get involved and try to work your differences out, have a say in your next contract or fight it. Either way, you must work out your problems with your union.

Fourthly, (if thats a word), Who are you to tell me I should forgoe the M-T clause when I have been here through many a merger, many a contract, and many a management. This may be your first merger, but for us it is just a string of many. We have been doing this a while. We know what we are doing. I am not about to give up the M-T clause to appease your group. The fact you want us to give up the clause shows your lack of understanding of the negotiating process. If you think AFA will stand and let a substantial negotiating tool be used for your gain then you are highly mistaken. Aint going to happen. Further, the east F/A's far outnumber the west on this issue and will not give up anything that detracts for any issue that wont give us a positive gain in our future.

Lastly.... Time is irrelevant... Had the company wanted to negotiate will ALL of its unions, it would have done so by now... Under the past BK's the company can run itself, all be it, un-efficiently, it can still do so without new contract till they MUST be negotiated. Let me put this question to you. The M-T clause also effects the F/A group with the issue of the 10 year fence. Since our conctract doesn't become ammendable till 2012 and we won't vote on anything till sometime after that, The F/a group is looking at not being able to invade the PHX base till the mid 2020's. This is some 15 years away. My question to you is this. Why did your union put up such a large fence? If you are so concerned about our group, why didn't you consult AFA befoe negotiating this?

Bottom Line is this...
The company wants to make a fight out of every issue... On all sides of unionized labor at this company...
They will get a fight with AFA...
Are they going to get a fight with AWAPPA?
I think not....

Once again Me-Too Clause....

Not on my watch...

Just my opinion...

 

[aredeeyou22]

Safety,

As a FA from the East, I have to disagree with you here. What, exactly, have the pilots not given away with regards to the Me2 that we still enjoy as protections? Sounds like another typical case of the East being afraid of any change whatsoever.

We have crap rigs, we have crap pairings, and the only enjoyable thing about the ME2 is the fact that in PHL we are making an extra $3.00 an hour on the domestic 767. Whoopie. What are the pilots "protecting" us from anymore? They gave everything away that they possibly could, time after time after time.

Personally, I think there are maaaany FA's out there that would love to be able to fly more than 8 hours of hard time, ie turns to the opposite coast. So what? Put some hard restrictions in our new contract that cuts out the possibility of abuse. (no more than 2 takeoffs/landings over 8 hours flight time; negotiate a max duty day, no cleaning on these trips, crew meals on these trips, just for some examples...)

Someone raised the fact that this may cause the need for less FA's, and I believe that may be right. Keep in mind that people were tripping over themselves taking the VOL leaves; I am not sure the staffing would be an issue.

Zarah, I believe, commented earlier that he/she has a small child at home, and does not want to be dragged out of bed for these trips to fly 10 hours. Well, would you rather be dragged out for a 14 hour 3 day or a 20 hour 4 day, thus being away from your child from 3-4 days? What's the difference? Hopefully, with the Pref Bid system they choose, RSV won't be an issue for us anyway....

Many East FA's also seem to be worried that the Company will take advantage of us if we don't have the backing of the cockpit crew. Let me ask you, the last time you were being screwed on a trip with regards to duty day, etc, did the pilots pick up the phone and defend you? From what I've seen, it's often the FA's making the call. Stand up for yourself, know your contract, negotiate good restrictions, and you'll be fine.

Bottom line, the FA's need to think outside of the box, and the East needs to realize that the pilots really don't offer us much protection anymore. Negotiate our rigs, negotiate a max duty day, negotiate all the protections that we see fit, and I can almost guarantee we would be more protected without the ME2 than we are now. We would also be more productive, and might not have to fly 22 days a month to reach 80 hours.

Many airlines are separate from their pilots, and their sky hasn't fallen. Think outside the box!