ALPA Thread 1/18-1/25 ALL ALPA Discussed Here

[EastUS]

A review of the last several months activities, or lack there-of, reveals the following:

"1) The JNC East refuses to negotiate for a joint CBA after having agreed to in the interim bargaining agreement with the company and the West pilot group." Sounds like an ALPA issue to me..What's your point?

"2) The East MEC/Merger Committee agrees to final and binding seniority arbitration, but then refuses to acknowledge the award and even sues the West because of it." See number 1 above. ALPA's great..just ask you, so; Why doesn't it actually function? It can't be that there's anything wrong with it's basic precepts and "process" structures...must be entirely the fault of those evil easties..understood.

"3) A splinter group of disgruntled pilots from the East extorts (Gee, Bob, how come you haven't sent your card in yet - I spotted your name on the list!!) the majority into filling out representation cards, " Yeppers...it certainly took a great deal of "extortion" to brow beat thousands of pilots like myself away from embracing Nic, given all our great love of Alpo, and our fierce desire to throw our collective seniority away ASAP 😉 You're joking...right?

"Does anybody spot a trend here? The East consistently refuses to or is incapable of following the rules!! " Awww...go ahead and tell the teacher then. Seriously; What's supposedly improper within seeking a redress of serious greivances through an extended protocal? = Dump Alpo. Isn't that well within the proper concept of working within "the system"? Just because this is being taken to a different level than you/the west/Alpa would like...How's that, in ANY way, against "the rules"?...News flash = this is America, and there's nothing the least bit illegal in what's been/being done in the east. That you dont care for the situation's likely outcome is hardly of legitimate concern to anyone.

"What will the next act of desperation be?" I'd guess an extended propoganda campaign from Alpo and AWA posters like yourself, coupled with a "contract/Nic" offer, and as much by way of delaying tactics against the election as possible. Alpo knows how that last will actually go...Sounds to me like you do as well. Why would you otherwise spend so much effort seeking to discredit?

Prechill: "assuming USAPA is even elected which seems to be questionable due to this recent card fiasco." Yes, yes, yes we all know: "You won't even get 200 cards!"..."A little bird told me that you're several hundred cards short/etc" You left out "Final and Binding!"/"It's OVER!"/"Ho ho ho! St Nic is coming to town!" and of course "Booshaka!" 😉 Be of good cheer. I'm certain that thousands of east pilots are simply dying from pure impatience to have you personally placed permanently above them in "seniority". Ummm..you've never answered the questions about how many years you've actually flown though...It must be a serious source of embarrassment for you 😉

 

[b737fo]

So now the next "solution" is an election. "Unrealistic" is in the strength of the union. Strength lies in unity and unity lies in majority.

Going back to "final and binding" I see!

You say "final and binding", we say majority.

We're having an election and we're going to find out! Isn't this exciting?

Unity is in the majority? I would hardly call 60% of a pilot group fighting with the other 40% unity.

Exciting? Probably is an exciting time for the attorneys on both sides of this who are going to see many billable hours the next few years. I bet the company is pretty jacked right now also since they don't have to share any of their new found financial success with the pilots.

I think the words exciting and unity died with the ending of the "Coast to coast" campaign to secure a contract.

 

[aw319]

Past and future arbitrations really don't matter. THIS one resulted in an utterly untenable result far ALL parties INCLUDING management (assuming they actually WANT a fully merged airline, and I actually believe they do). I predict that if the award isn't at the very least modified in a substantial way (or better yet, set aside altogether) that this stalemate will continue indefinitely or until enough east pilots leave through attrition the the remainder would willingly vote in a contract with it intact. Now that age 65 retirement is in effect this time frame will be even longer. Several years either way. I WILL NOT vote for ANY contract that gives away 15 YEARS of my seniority, and I have absolutely no doubt the the VAST majority of east pilots feel the same way. Until or unless that majority change their mind on this, the Nic award is moot. Modify the award, maybe a slight chance...otherwise NO chance of a contract. It's just the reality.

With 15 years on the east pre merger, YOU HAD NO SENIORITY!! You were a JUNIOR Reserve if anything, probably they next one out the door.

Your not losing ANYTHING, Except a chance to LEAPFROG beyond what you brought to the merger, If you
think the steering commitee is going to get you DOH and fix everything in your mind, FORGET IT!.

 

[EastUS]

With 15 years on the east pre merger, YOU HAD NO SENIORITY!! You were a JUNIOR Reserve if anything, probably they next one out the door.

Your not losing ANYTHING, Except a chance to LEAPFROG beyond what you brought to the merger, If you
think the steering commitee is going to get you DOH and fix everything in your mind, FORGET IT!.

The poster you're replying to noted over 20 years, with no furlough...Does that count?..Even a wee, tiny little bit? :blink:
Your vast number of years flown that've, at least in your own mind, "entitled" you to "seniority" are...how many then?

"YOU HAD NO SENIORITY!!" So speaks ALPO-AWA....All in favor?...Those opposed?......I'm thinking that the motion's to be defeated within the near future.

 

[Phoenix]

ALPA is in a flat spin with the outboard engine at full power.

Their only argument is based on speculation of how frightful it will be if you leave. ALPA's argument boils down to nothing more than the goat now riding your back is way more comforting than the fear of what the boogie man in the real world might do to you once you exercise your right to leave home.

ALPA will always make the decision for you, if you just let them. Let them take the load off of your mind.

-- ALPA dreamed up MetroJet, for pilots that were denied the right to vote.
-- ALPA dreamed up J4J, for pilots that were denied the right to vote.
-- ALPA dreamed up the pension give away, for pilots that were denied the right to vote.
-- ALPA dreamed up a denial of grievances, for pilots that were denied the right to vote.
-- ALPA dreamed up a CLT info meeting hosted by Herndon Warriors instead of a LEC meeting, for pilots that are being denied the right to vote.
-- ALPA dreamed up confusion about “single carrier statusâ€￾, for pilots that are being denied the right to vote.
-- ALPA dreamed up the ACPC, for pilots that were denied the right to vote on it.
-- ALPA dreamed up the Blue Ribbon Committee, for pilots that were denied the right to vote.

Evidently ALPA has many advisers and experts ready at hand to help them make decisions for you.

Their de facto motto seems pretty clear to me...


“Take a load off! Vote ALPA. We decide so you don't have to!â€￾

 

[end_of_alpa]

That is fine if you wish to validate your argument on a person with no legal experience like Kirby. I personally have very little respect for any of the senior managers of LCC so anything they say has very little value to me. Perhaps Kirby was speaking to assuage emotions, but what really is notable regarding Kirby (since you bring him up) is the senior management of our company endorsed the list, they did not stand in the way of it nor do I believe they would. But what LCC managers personally believe about Nicolau has little bearing on the validity of the seniority integration process- this case has everything to do with jurisprudence and the law. So far I have only seen a misinterpretation of two previous cases by your hired counsel as your evidence to invoke a new seniority list based on "majority rule". Forgive my skepticism, but the core challenge of overturning an arbitrated decision has not been addressed. None of the case law your counsel provides deals with overtunring selected arbitrated decisions. As I stated before, you are relying on a perceived technicality to disqualify Nicolau, a technicality due to the East's refusal to comply with an agreement they are party to. The courts will decide the merits of this, assuming USAPA is even elected which seems to be questionable due to this recent card fiasco.

Selective hearing from what management says has always been a labor weakness.

Well, I guess well just have to wait for "jurisprudence and the law" to decide.

Refusing to comply and voting are separate issues.

The recent "card fiasco" you speak of is a "non-event" as of today, FYI.

Look, East meets West on these boards and the only way we'll solve it is through an election and the courts.

The banter is now wasted, IMHO.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The problem with that logic is that prior to Nicolau, East pilots had never made any serious effort to oust ALPA. A fact record from a trial would likely show, as facts, that East pilots had long been members of ALPA, had used ALPA and its Constitution and By-Laws previously and members of East only seriously entertained the thought of changing unions after losing an arbitration hearing post-merger. So, assuming a clean transcript from the trial court, any appellate court would be looking at any appeal from the trial court with those facts established and any presumptions would be in favor of those facts in the instant record. The appellate court would solely look at matters-of-law with the trial court having determined the facts.

Now, if my presumptions of what the trial record would show are incorrect, please feel free to educate me where I am wrong. I admit to not knowing the full union history of the East pilot group.

HUH???

 

[Bear96]

ALPA is in a flat spin with the outboard engine at full power.

Their only argument is based on speculation of how frightful it will be if you leave.

And USAPA's argument is based on what, exactly? "Vote for us and we'll magically make everything perfect!" Yeah, that's much more persuasive.

 

[EastUS]

ALPA is in a flat spin with the outboard engine at full power.

Their only argument is based on speculation of how frightful it will be if you leave. ALPA's argument boils down to nothing more than the goat now riding your back is way more comforting than the fear of what the boogie man in the real world might do to you once you exercise your right to leave home.

Evidently ALPA has many advisers and experts ready at hand to help them make decisions for you.

Their de facto motto seems pretty clear to me...


“Take a load off! Vote ALPA. We decide so you don't have to!â€￾

"So you don't have to, or have the chance to..."

That's just plain silly. You almost make it sound like "the right to vote" on life/career issues should matter to people You'll never sell that ridiculous nonsense to any staunch ALPA supporter....

 

[end_of_alpa]

The problem with that logic is that prior to Nicolau, East pilots had never made any serious effort to oust ALPA. A fact record from a trial would likely show, as facts, that East pilots had long been members of ALPA, had used ALPA and its Constitution and By-Laws previously and members of East only seriously entertained the thought of changing unions after losing an arbitration hearing post-merger. So, assuming a clean transcript from the trial court, any appellate court would be looking at any appeal from the trial court with those facts established and any presumptions would be in favor of those facts in the instant record. The appellate court would solely look at matters-of-law with the trial court having determined the facts.

Now, if my presumptions of what the trial record would show are incorrect, please feel free to educate me where I am wrong. I admit to not knowing the full union history of the East pilot group.

HUH??? Again, what does THIS mean?

First, ELECTION.

Second, if USAPA, then election of officers or otherwise, more of the same under ALPA,

Third, contract negotiations

Fourth, Contract vote and if MAJORITY votes it in,

Fifth, former AWA pilot lawsuit.

Guys, speculate all you want....we'll see what the lawsuit has to bring, OK?

East pilots, USAPA and the company already expect a suit if USAPA gets voted in. Already ready to DEFEND.

 

[Phoenix]

And USAPA's argument is based on what, exactly? "Vote for us and we'll magically make everything perfect!" Yeah, that's much more persuasive.

No its much less complicated than that.

"You have to VOTE for USAPA. They WON'T do it for you!"

 

[end_of_alpa]

That is fine if you wish to validate your argument on a person with no legal experience like Kirby. I personally have very little respect for any of the senior managers of LCC so anything they say has very little value to me. Perhaps Kirby was speaking to assuage emotions, but what really is notable regarding Kirby (since you bring him up) is the senior management of our company endorsed the list, they did not stand in the way of it nor do I believe they would. But what LCC managers personally believe about Nicolau has little bearing on the validity of the seniority integration process- this case has everything to do with jurisprudence and the law. So far I have only seen a misinterpretation of two previous cases by your hired counsel as your evidence to invoke a new seniority list based on "majority rule". Forgive my skepticism, but the core challenge of overturning an arbitrated decision has not been addressed. None of the case law your counsel provides deals with overtunring selected arbitrated decisions. As I stated before, you are relying on a perceived technicality to disqualify Nicolau, a technicality due to the East's refusal to comply with an agreement they are party to. The courts will decide the merits of this, assuming USAPA is even elected which seems to be questionable due to this recent card fiasco.

So we'll listen to the "legal" experience this forum has to offer! There's a laugh.

Look, I know now you don't believe anything I post. Fair enough. We are going to COURT!

OK! nuff' said!

 

[end_of_alpa]

January 18, 2008—In this issue:

The America West MEC Steering Committee (AMSC) met internally this week to prepare for our first meeting with the East three-member panel. We plan to hold our first meeting next week to establish protocols and agree on data on which to base further discussions that will lead to a comprehensive counter to the “Kirby proposalâ€￾ from last May. If you remember, the company’s insulting proposal was a concessionary offer that charged the America West pilots for the cost of this merger. Since receiving the Kirby proposal, we have not held any meaningful joint negotiations with the company. Since May 2005, the America West pilots have been fenced off of all vacancies and growth created by the merger. With the change to the mandatory retirement age to 65 coupled with the fact that there will be virtually no overall growth, it is imperative that we explore every avenue to access career progression opportunities for all pilots. All pilots are also long overdue for contractual improvements and monetary compensation for our sacrifices that have contributed to the overall success and profitability of the corporation.

There are no guarantees that we will be able to find common ground; however, absent a concerted effort to move the process forward we are faced with an unacceptable situation. The AMSC is keenly aware that America West pilots demand adherence to our union’s policies and any solutions they seek must meet career expectations that will ratify by independent votes of each pilot group. These are difficult challenges and are certain to be accompanied by criticism, but your MEC will investigate every opportunity to deliver a contract inclusive of the Nicolau Award and deserved gains to you for ratification.

Captain Tania Bziukiewicz
Communications Committee Chairman

Mired in the mud and no place to go.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Wall Street is abuzz with talk of more airline consolidation. This time, however, labor is mentioned as a key player to the success of those discussions. Analysts have made it clear that any proposed transaction needs to have the backing of labor or the deal has no chance of succeeding. We can only assume that Wall Street learned something from watching the America West-US Airways debacle over the past two-and-a-half years and hope that this lesson is shared with management.

Captain Tania Bziukiewicz
Communications Committee Chairman

The lesson is definitely OWNED BY management!

 

[luvthe9]

Glad to hear the AWA 3 man panel is planning a major modification of the Nicolau award, I think they are starting to get it!!