ALPA Thread 1/18-1/25 ALL ALPA Discussed Here

[sharktooth]

The fact remains that the poster you are referring to was fired by his company for his views he posted on this web site. ALPA acted slowly in helping him regain his employment, Stockholm Syndrome fashion. The poster left here supporting USAPA the future Union and returned an alpa supporter only because they saved his job. There were no attacks just factually backed observations.

ALPA represents all pilots at US and must, at least, go through the motions of "defending" any such pilot, slow-mo or not. Once the "normal" and contractual means of "defense" are exhausted, then the ex-employee is "allowed" to seek their own legal help. "Allowed" meaning the pilot, at any time, is always entitled to use their own counsel, but then that relieves the supporting union it's obligations and would complicate the process unnecessarily should the pilot wish to resume union representation in that process. The pilots paid for it, they might as well not limit their available resources, as good or bad as they might be.

Contrary to a prior post by 76jetz**, I don't seem to recall the poster being received with open arms. More of a cautious welcome. and I really don't read that he has changed all that much. Sure ALPA has "friendly guys". Heck, I hear even a brothel has friendly employees, but would you trust them with your future? For once, I would just like competent people running the union, not to mention, the company.

Now that I view the man's posting, while I think ALPA wants him to think they saved his job, when, in reality, most any legal secretary could have come up with a winning strategy to "get his job back". I have seen the "ALPA wants you to be beholden to them" strategy way too many times. I don't know which is more sick, the union resorting to that strategy or the pilot/ group(s) that buy into it.

**Name Edited by Moderator--NO namecalling please.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The way e-o-a describes what is going on in CLT has got me starting to worry: Excitement!! A sea of yellow ribbons!! Quite a show!! Indoctrination!! Pilots oozing!!

This all sounds like the perfect, modern-day Jonestown scenario - with an added biohazard problem.

You could only wish!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Factually incorrect on all counts. USAPA inherits and is the custodian to, both CBAs and the transition agreement, as well as any other agreement between the company and either pilot group.

In other words, you guys may get the USAPA. However, it won't get DOH. Or a contract without the west guys voting approving it--see the transition agreement thing about ratification of a joint contract. Whoops.

All you can do with Nicolau is live under LOA 93 forever, and hope another merger does not come along with a larger ALPA carrier (in which case the best case is Nicolau). The USAPA thing, promising DOH, is criminally stupid--considering the East pilots could live under LOA 93 forever without changing unions.



Not really.



Yeah, and because of that, you can't get DOH unless the west guys independently ratify a new contract with DOH in it. As mentioned above, it's criminally stupid.

So we'll wait for the election then you can sue USAPA...OK?

 

[767jetz]

The fact remains that the poster you are referring to was fired by his company for his views he posted on this web site. ALPA acted slowly in helping him regain his employment, Stockholm Syndrome fashion. The poster left here supporting USAPA the future Union and returned an alpa supporter only because they saved his job. There were no attacks just factually backed observations.

Or a different perspective:

Perhaps USA320pilot realized that a USAPA would be a weak and neutered union without the resources to help the membership when they really need it. Perhaps he realized (correctly so) that with USAPA there would be no aeromedical assistance, no governmental lobbying activity, and little legal assistance when an over zealous management team decides to make an example of pilots for their own gain. Could it be that his experience made him realize that there is another way to see things, much like the smoker who quits after a near fatal heart attack???

You probably can't consider any scenario that doesn't conform with your rigid point of view. So in your simplistic nature, it is easier to brush it off as "brain washing." 🙄

 

[767jetz]

"Steve Derebey, a United pilot and union spokesman, said Wednesday that if any entity tries to force a transaction on the pilots "you'd see a marked and hostile reaction." "We could ensure that a merger would fail," he added.

Now will this be like the Summer of Hell, where your pilots union was responsible for hundreds of cancellations?

I think you've got it wrong again. United pilots were not responsible for any cancellations. Most pilots in 2000 decided not to work more than we were contractually required to. There is no such thing as forced overtime in this country. Since we were displeases with management and no longer motivated to help them out of their problems, the schedule fell apart. In the interest of good faith, the pilots helped mask a long time under staffing issue by volunteering to work more. When that good faith was exhausted, we went back doing our basic job, and let the problems they created unfold.

Of course you already know that and know how it works. So this post is for the benefit of the "flying public" you are so insincerely concerned with. :blink:

If a merger with UA occurs that we do not support, you will see the same reaction the Delta pilots had during your hostile takeover attempt. Every pilot union that is in the focus of current M&A activity (no, not USAir) has informed their management that the pilots cooperation is essential for success. Unmotivated employees do not go the extra mile. That cooperation is attained by including us in the process and addressing our concerns. It's that simple.

I'm sure the traveling public appreciates your concern... NOT!

PS. Don't worry. US won't be getting any part of UA anytime soon.

 

[john john]

Or a different perspective:

USAPA would be a weak and neutered union without the resources to help the membership when they really need it. USAPA there would be no aeromedical assistance, no governmental lobbying activity, and little legal assistance when an over zealous management team decides to make an example of pilots for their own gain. realize that there is another way to see things,

Maybe USAPA will take a page from United mechanics transformation to Teamster

 

[nostradamus]

Or a different perspective:

Could it be that his experience made him realize that there is another way to see things, much like the smoker who quits after a near fatal heart attack???

You probably can't consider any scenario that doesn't conform with your rigid point of view. So in your simplistic nature, it is easier to brush it off as "brain washing." 🙄

I disagree with your theory. This is a classic case of the Stockholm Syndrome combined with a classic Fight or Flight response. This leads me to believe that the poster in question was primarily bottle fed as evidenced by his inability to handle stress.

Your thoughts sir.

 

[luvn737s]

In other words, you guys may get the USAPA. However, it won't get DOH. Or a contract without the west guys voting approving it--see the transition agreement thing about ratification of a joint contract. Whoops.

All you can do with Nicolau is live under LOA 93 forever, and hope another merger does not come along with a larger ALPA carrier (in which case the best case is Nicolau). The USAPA thing, promising DOH, is criminally stupid--considering the East pilots could live under LOA 93 forever without changing unions.

So, in other words if USAPA wins, then the stalemate continues and the bottom east pilot (ostensibly the benefits of USAPA are weighted towards the junior portion of the list) has no furlough protection? Under Nicolau both east and west shoulder the burden of furlough fodder. So hypothetically the company decides to furlough 30 pilots and chooses to do so from the east only (where that number represents a smaller percentage) all 30 would be furloughed, but if Nicolau is implemented and a joint contract is ratified that number could drop considerably.

And this benefits the east pilots, how??

And if USAPA wins they would now have to make good on their promises. It's like a hostage taker who gets his demands: for ransom and to marry the hostage. They immediately get divorced and he spends all the ransom on alimony and child support. For USAPA winning could be a worst-case scenario.

Although, with east's track record I see a deadbeat dad in all this.

Does USAPA really throw the junior guys under the bus?

 

[88 B.T.D.]

So, in other words if USAPA wins, then the stalemate continues and the bottom east pilot (ostensibly the benefits of USAPA are weighted towards the junior portion of the list) has no furlough protection? Under Nicolau both east and west shoulder the burden of furlough fodder. So hypothetically the company decides to furlough 30 pilots and chooses to do so from the east only (where that number represents a smaller percentage) all 30 would be furloughed, but if Nicolau is implemented and a joint contract is ratified that number could drop considerably.

And this benefits the east pilots, how??

This is the most illogical reasoning I have seen lately. First of all there are a few hundred new hires on the East. Second, why would the company furlough junior new hire East money makers instead of more senior West money losers?
Additionally, if a furlough occurs after the next merger it will include many more pilots 1000's perhaps, and Allegheny/Mohawk provisions with the new carrier will "spread the wealth" even more. So no, they do not throw anyone under the bus.

 

[Bear96]

There is no such thing as forced overtime in this country.

Sure there is. Outside of the transportation industry and in non-union workplaces, an employee can legally require employees to work overtime and fire them if they refuse.

 

[Phoenix]

Perhaps USA320pilot realized that a USAPA would be a weak and neutered union without the resources [experts]....

 

[767jetz]

Sure there is. Outside of the transportation industry and in non-union workplaces, an employee can legally require employees to work overtime and fire them if they refuse.

I stand corrected. However my post was in reference to our position as unionized workers, working under a contract that clearly stipulates what is required of us and what is not.

My bad for not being more specific.

 

[luvn737s]

This is the most illogical reasoning I have seen lately. First of all there are a few hundred new hires on the East. Second, why would the company furlough junior new hire East money makers instead of more senior West money losers?
Additionally, if a furlough occurs after the next merger it will include many more pilots 1000's perhaps, and Allegheny/Mohawk provisions with the new carrier will "spread the wealth" even more. So no, they do not throw anyone under the bus.

Ok, so a few hundred new-hires (probably less because all of them have not completed training) get furloughed, but what if they're not enough. Separate ops does not offer the furlough protection that a combined operation does. The senior USAPs could care less because they are only focused on protecting their upgrades (which would not be materially affected by Nicolau anyhow. Your AL/MK provisions will not exist absent a combined contract. USAPA only serves to delay this and cause undue harm to junior east pilots.

"Money makers-losers". I wouldn't pin any hopes on such logic.

 

[767jetz]

I disagree with your theory. This is a classic case of the Stockholm Syndrome combined with a classic Fight or Flight response. This leads me to believe that the poster in question was primarily bottle fed as evidenced by his inability to handle stress.

Your thoughts sir.

My thoughts? I guess it's clear that I disagree with you as well.

I didn't know that in addition to an airline pilot, labor law expert, and airline analyst, you are also a psychologist. (Why would you continue in this profession with such an impressive resume?)

Stockholm Syndrome and Fight or Flight sound very official, and may conveniently fit ONE possible scenario. But IMO it's too convenient for you. While I myself have, in the past, questioned a certain poster's emotional stability, it doesn't mean he is not capable of learning from mistakes and modifying his own behavior by choice. What about you? Would you ride a crippled airplane into the ground because of a decision you made at the onset of the emergency, even when later presented with alternatives from others, for fear of being labeled a "flip-flopper" or maybe even "brainwashed?" If that is the case, perhaps one should question your ability to handle stress.

The bottom line is that you can't argue with the facts:

US Airways ALPA MEC Chairman's Message January 19, 2008

I am compelled once again to respond to another reckless attempt by the PHL Council 41 representatives to derail the process that the rest of your MEC stands behind.

I imagine that our largest council is unhappy with the fact that every other council doesn't have a problem with seeing if we can come to a mutual agreement with the AWA pilots

No other council is sending intentionally misleading communications meant to scare our pilots

just being the representatives from the largest council and just being the representatives who cast the most aspersions, does not guarantee that your opinions will prevail.

In December, the PHL reps attempted to shut down the Steering Committee, but were
unable to convince a majority of their fellow MEC members that such action was in the
best interests of our pilots.

they know that the rest of the MEC is not buying into their tirades and tactics, so they continue to lash out and vent their frustrations on me.

These are your own fellow pilots, representing your peers. So please don't attempt one of your trite dismissals that this is purely ALPA National talking. Or is it yet another case of "brainwashing?" Or maybe you are not in the majority after all. Maybe your USAPA drive is faltering. Maybe the 3000+ cards that were signed were mostly an expression of dissatisfaction, but do not actually represent 3000 pilots willing to vote for USAPA.

Your MEC has attempted to explore every avenue to overturn the binding arbitration to no avail. I guess in a way one can respect them for trying. But with no viable options remaining they are trying a different approach. One that has a better chance of success than your decert attempt. And it is clear to even a casual observer that while PHL may be the largest single council, they do not represent the opinion of the majority.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

quote L737 Your AL/MK provisions will not exist absent a combined contract. USAPA only serves to delay this and cause undue harm to junior east pilots.

I am almost certain they reside in each separate contract presently.