ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[EastUS]

So now we can't "fix" what is wrong unless we stay in ALPA? What kind of logic is that? We've learned our lessons the hard way and we're fixing that.

"What kind of logic is that?" That'd be ZERO in the way of logic. Any offerings of that nature are just vehicles for the attempted advancement of someone else's agenda, and make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[AWA320]

I don't have a dog in this hunt in any way, shape or form. But I still haven't seen any evidence that USAPA is anything more than a do-over on a number of fronts, such as:

1. Having control of your union.

A. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the way that the local MEC's operate largely through the power vested to those elected folks through the votes cast for them?

B. If the elected folks were not representing the will of the majority, why weren't they recalled from office, or was the majority just that apathetic until the results of the Nicolau Arbitration were announced?

2. Attempting an end-run on the Nicolau Arbitration ruling.

I understand that people vote for folks to represent their interests. But doesn't the electorate have a responsibility to make certain that they are indeed being represented according to their wishes?

How will USAPA be of any help to any of you in future consolidation? Do you think ALPA is going to be inclined to treat USAPA nicely if US Airways somehow gets involved in a transaction with another airline that has ALPA on the property?

From where I sit on the sidelines I see arguments along the lines of "ALPA costs too much", "ALPA pays secretaries what, or more than, pilots get paid" and arguments such as those. If the membership really feels that way, why don't they have their elected reps place items on the ALPA agenda to move their operations to either a strip mall or warehouse space? Or insist that all secretaries and office staff need to leave ALPA for other employment after five years so they never advance up any pay scale based on longevity? (Of course all the institutional knowledge of how things really get done gets flushed when people turnover in jobs at that extent.)

The bottom line as I see it is you guys feel sold out by the people you elected to the MEC leadership positions, you didn't pay attention to warning signs when things were still going pretty well, and took no action when you could or should have to have kept the situation under control before Nicolau ever heard the arbitration proceeding.

Tell me objectively why what I am viewing is incorrect.

You are not really expecting a rational answer are you? You will hear things like ALPA did this to me and ALPA did that to me but who is ALPA???? The pilots are ALPA plain and simple!!! ALPA has no vote ZERO. The east as always blames others for their continued failures instead of looking in a mirror.

Their reps were allowed to run unchecked for years and they did nothing!!!
ALPA merger policy has and was in place for over 16 years prior to this yet they did NOTHING TO CHANGE IT and it wasn't until it was over that they had a problem!!!
The east had every opportunity and I do mean every to be reasonable and work this out OUTSIDE of arb and they did NOTHING!!!
The are, have been and will continue to be their own worst enemy and they will blame that on someone or something other than themselves!!!

How do you think they are going to feel when the find out that a stop payment has already been issued by the company on their reality check??? 24 mos until USAir takes it's rightful place among the other great FAILURES. Eastern, Braniff, TWA, Pan AM, Midway all of those carriers employees thought they too were too big to ever go out of business, but where are they now???

 

[oldiebutgoody]

How do you think they are going to feel when the find out that a stop payment has already been issued by the company on their reality check??? 24 mos until USAir takes it's rightful place among the other great FAILURES. Eastern, Braniff, TWA, Pan AM, Midway all of those carriers employees thought they too were too big to ever go out of business, but where are they now???

Yup. ALPA sure helped those other airlines, didn't it. So much for ALPA saving ANYBODY'S bacon.

Time for ALPA to go. If the airline goes under in 24 months, it won't be because the East guys didn't give enough to keep it going.

Let's get on with the vote!

 

[CactusFlyr]

Lawsuit? I havn't heard you filed any papers in the courts, yet. A little premature, aren't we?

You brought PHX and LAS. Sorry, but you just want to cash in on the windfall.

Looking for that "lawsuit". I hope YOU guys have plenty of money...you're going to need it. Maybe Bear96's and PrechillII lawfirm at the Leonidas website will have your answers! Good luck.

Not THAT lawsuit, the TWA one.

 

[AWA320]

Yup. ALPA sure helped those other airlines, didn't it. So much for ALPA saving ANYBODY'S bacon.

Time for ALPA to go. If the airline goes under in 24 months, it won't be because the East guys didn't give enough to keep it going.

Let's get on with the vote!

Wow some heads are really hard as granite! The pilots are ALPA PERIOD! You and your cronnies seem to think that ALPA is this other entity when in reality it's the pilots. ALPA never voted not once to give away your pension YOU DID!! ALPA never voted on LOA93 YOU DID!! So it's up to YOU to save your own bacon because who is ALPA??? YOU ARE!! lights coming on yet or do you need more remedial??

I want you to get on with your vote as well as that is the quickest way to ensure the demise of USAir. Once they are gone and the industry is rid of their "YOU OWE ME" mentality the better off the rest of us will be!

 

[jtwhat]

Wow some heads are really hard as granite! The pilots are ALPA PERIOD! You and your cronnies seem to think that ALPA is this other entity when in reality it's the pilots. ALPA never voted not once to give away your pension YOU DID!! ALPA never voted on LOA93 YOU DID!! So it's up to YOU to save your own bacon because who is ALPA??? YOU ARE!! lights coming on yet or do you need more remedial??

I want you to get on with your vote as well as that is the quickest way to ensure the demise of USAir. Once they are gone and the industry is rid of their "YOU OWE ME" mentality the better off the rest of us will be!

Dude talking to these east wipes is like talking to a brick.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Sucks to lose!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Dude talking to these east wipes is like talking to a brick.

Proves my point as to what the West pilots think of us....we're better than you and we want what we never had.

 

[AWA320]

Sucks to lose!

What did you lose??

 

[sharktooth]

Wow some heads are really hard as granite! The pilots are ALPA PERIOD! You and your cronnies seem to think that ALPA is this other entity when in reality it's the pilots. ALPA never voted not once to give away your pension YOU DID!! ALPA never voted on LOA93 YOU DID!! So it's up to YOU to save your own bacon because who is ALPA??? YOU ARE!! lights coming on yet or do you need more remedial??

What the east pilots are saying is that ALPA National has become detached from the line pilot.

The east pilots expected ALPA National to not sign onto the MetroJet LOA because the operation was a B-scale and then ALPA National had a non B-scale policy.

The east pilots expected ALPA National to not sign off on the termination of the DB retirement plan because the US MEC had a constitution that demanded membership ratification for that. By not placing those councils voting contrary to their own constitution into trusteeship, again, ALPA National demonstrated their complicity and unwillingness to act on their own policies.

I want you to get on with your vote as well as that is the quickest way to ensure the demise of USAir. Once they are gone and the industry is rid of their "YOU OWE ME" mentality the better off the rest of us will be!

USAir is already gone. It is USAirways now. Sorry you didn't get the memo.

 

[P51Pilot]

What did you lose??

I think he meant to say, No St. Nic for you!

 

[ClueByFour]

As far as a "do over", that is part of the process, regardless of what anyone thinks.

It's not an "end-run". Again, it's how the system WORKS! You're aluding to everyone that, even though the system of "gambling" the CBA employs is a "just" method of adjudication without any appeal makes for strange bedfellows in our system of justice. The electorate is doing JUST WHAT YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD DO. Vote for folks to represent our best interests.

Spare us. It's an end-run (trying to abuse the will of the majority who did not like what the arbitrator had to say) attempt. Land grab. That's it.

Had you been the least little bit smart about it the first time, this would not be an issue. The DOH/LOS land grab did not work. What USAPA is trying will not achieve that end. You had your appeal and lost. You will lose by trying the cramdown. It's a shame it's being sold as a way to fix the arbitration. That won't happen. (nor morally should it--there is no justification for someone without a job at the time of the merger going anywhere except behind everyone who brought a job to the merger). East could have avoided the very raw deal it got regarding it's attrition had the "majority" been willing to let the folks running the show move off DOH/LOS. It did not, and paid the price. Can't fix stupid (See below).

Any attempt to reorder a combined list to DOH won't clear the judge. In fact, it might not clear a vote--since if you try (out of a sense of entitlement and greed) to staple the West, every single Shuttle and Piedmont guy might just decide they want DOH. And then what?

This proves that you can get stupid to vote, but still can't fix stupid.

Can we get another "Let's vote?" It's such a cute tagline. It does not for a second hide what's actually going on, or why.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Proves my point as to what the West pilots think of us....we're better than you and we want what we never had.

No, we just want what we brought, and your furloughed guys cannot have it- ever.

 

[P51Pilot]

No, we just want what we brought, and your furloughed guys cannot have it- ever.

Cool, fences around the East Coast stuff for 30 years. Enjoy PHX and LAS and all of the growth out there!

 

[N924PS]

Cool, fences around the East Coast stuff for 30 years. Enjoy PHX and LAS and all of the growth out there!

You mean like all the growth the East has experienced in PHL and CLT?

E190's replacing B737's and A330-200's replacing worn out B767's. Now that's real growth on the East.

With oil in excess of $100 a barrel, there will be little or no domestic growth on mainline USAirways for some time to come.

You will continue to see USAirways system expand by using its regional partners to provide feed to what remains of the mainline. The most recent new service announcements to cities like New Bern, Fort Walton Beach, Daytona Beach and others are examples of that continuing trend.

Except for a few E190 vacancies as they arrive, don't expect many upgrades for another 5 years or so when the Age 65 attrition starts to kick in.