ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[EastUS]

Enough with the pot meet kettle stuff. Those of us on the WEST (and our reasoning)are nothing like the east goones.

Clearly sir. You folks are fairly new to the ALPA thing...and all that seemingly shows on your radar is Nic....... so far. There appears to be a presumptive paradigm out there that AWA was destined for endless glory and expansion,. and that none of you could ever have found yourselves in unpleasant scenarios in any "forecast" future within the world view of selected "expectations". Well that happened, and it ain't our fault. Ultimately; we're in this mess together...regardless of how much "fun" we're all currently having.

PS: If you folks honestly expected ALPA to make things go well....that's but additonal testimony to a collective lack of significant west experience with that august body. I mean, criminy!.wasn't it yourself that was ex-TWA? Would you care to make ANY statement as to how tremendously the "UNITED ALPA" consortium of "Fraternal Fellow Pilots", heroically led by Herndon, actually helped you in ANY way?..Shape?...Form??... After all = you weren''t "isolated"...were you?

 

[b737fo]

PS: If you folks honestly expected ALPA to make things go well....that's but additonal testimony to a collective lack of significant west experience with that august body. I mean, criminy!.wasn't it yourself that was ex-TWA? Would you care to make ANY statement as to how tremendously the "UNITED ALPA" consortium of "Fraternal Fellow Pilots", heroically led by Herndon, actually helped you in ANY way?..Shape?...Form??... After all = you weren''t "isolated"...were you?

Ah yes that's right. I should put my faith in USAPA. After all look how engaging they have been to the West in showing what good representatives they would be.

Kind of reminds me of how "good" the APA was supposed to be over that other pesky CBA to those TWA'ers.

 

[EastUS]

[quote name='b737fo' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:38 AM' post='580661'
Kind of reminds me of how "good" the APA was supposed to be over that other pesky CBA to those TWA'ers.
[/quote]

Hmm...I do see your point there...ALPA proved itself to be truly usefull for the poor TWA folks. Gee/Golly/Gosh: Exactly WHERE was that hugely powerfull, "National" Association with all of it's "United Fellow Pilots" when they needed them? ALPA at it's test-proven finest. Countless kudos to that august, and awesomely powerfull body yet again. A true cynic, not struck blind by the glory of Nic/ALPA, "might" even suggest that ALPA proved itself utterly worthless in yet another real-world, (as opposed to ACPC/"Concerned-Pilots-in-Fantasyland") situation there, and that they even just left the TWA guys out like yesterday's garbage...without really even trying to do anything...but: put your faith where you think best. I must fairly note on ALPA's behalf though, that any concern for the TWA people's seniority must logically have been of only "relative" interest to Herndon in any case, and that the tragic results for the TWA group might well have occurred even had American also been ALPA. It's truly only a "process"..supported only by "guidlines" and "policy" after all.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Clearly sir. You folks are fairly new to the ALPA thing...and all that seemingly shows on your radar is Nic....... so far. There appears to be a presumptive paradigm out there that AWA was destined for endless glory and expansion,. and that none of you could ever have found yourselves in unpleasant scenarios in any "forecast" future within the world view of selected "expectations". Well that happened, and it ain't our fault. Ultimately; we're in this mess together...regardless of how much "fun" we're all currently having.

PS: If you folks honestly expected ALPA to make things go well....that's but additonal testimony to a collective lack of significant west experience with that august body. I mean, criminy!.wasn't it yourself that was ex-TWA? Would you care to make ANY statement as to how tremendously the "UNITED ALPA" consortium of "Fraternal Fellow Pilots", heroically led by Herndon, actually helped you in ANY way?..Shape?...Form??... After all = you weren''t "isolated"...were you?

They haven't, and I am no ALPA lover but I see us as being totally defenseless in an upcoming merger scenario with any other carrier if USAPA is on the property. I also don't happen to agree with USAPA's whole reason for being. I am sure you will come up with many other reasons, but you know the main one and won't even begin to pretend it is anything else- keeping the job I brought to the table. And FYI, the lawsuit is going well- I will retire soon.

 

[P51Pilot]

They haven't, and I am no ALPA lover but I see us as being totally defenseless in an upcoming merger scenario with any other carrier if USAPA is on the property. I also don't happen to agree with USAPA's whole reason for being. I am sure you will come up with many other reasons, but you know the main one and won't even begin to pretend it is anything else- keeping the job I brought to the table. And FYI, the lawsuit is going well- I will retire soon.

You brought a job on a 73, a320, or 757 in phx and las. I am sure there is a list of the N numbers. That is all you brought.

 

[end_of_alpa]

They haven't, and I am no ALPA lover but I see us as being totally defenseless in an upcoming merger scenario with any other carrier if USAPA is on the property. I also don't happen to agree with USAPA's whole reason for being. I am sure you will come up with many other reasons, but you know the main one and won't even begin to pretend it is anything else- keeping the job I brought to the table. And FYI, the lawsuit is going well- I will retire soon.

Lawsuit? I havn't heard you filed any papers in the courts, yet. A little premature, aren't we?

You brought PHX and LAS. Sorry, but you just want to cash in on the windfall.

Looking for that "lawsuit". I hope YOU guys have plenty of money...you're going to need it. Maybe Bear96's and PrechillII lawfirm at the Leonidas website will have your answers! Good luck.

 

[kubotapilot]

East,

They (West) still have the same mentality they had in the early 90's just before their bankruptcy. They were expanding under the Beuveas (SP) administration. They were going to conquer the world. Flying those fuel efficient 747-200's to NRT. Well, they were all so surprised when the cash ran out and BK hit. I remember all of the 1/2 off tix sales just prior to bk to raise cash. Most of the employees were sheep, not seeing the slaughter about to take place !

Commuter operation/mentality then, still the same now....

Clearly sir. You folks are fairly new to the ALPA thing...and all that seemingly shows on your radar is Nic....... so far. There appears to be a presumptive paradigm out there that AWA was destined for endless glory and expansion,. and that none of you could ever have found yourselves in unpleasant scenarios in any "forecast" future within the world view of selected "expectations". Well that happened, and it ain't our fault. Ultimately; we're in this mess together...regardless of how much "fun" we're all currently having.

PS: If you folks honestly expected ALPA to make things go well....that's but additonal testimony to a collective lack of significant west experience with that august body. I mean, criminy!.wasn't it yourself that was ex-TWA? Would you care to make ANY statement as to how tremendously the "UNITED ALPA" consortium of "Fraternal Fellow Pilots", heroically led by Herndon, actually helped you in ANY way?..Shape?...Form??... After all = you weren''t "isolated"...were you?

 

[sharktooth]

I also don't happen to agree with USAPA's whole reason for being. I am sure you will come up with many other reasons, but you know the main one and won't even begin to pretend it is anything else- keeping the job I brought to the table.

It would be hard to label the "straw that broke the camels back" as "the main one". It was one of many straws. By itself, it would not have caused USAPA. It was a part of the whole concessionary package.

After all, far and away, most of the pilots at US stayed on the property because DOH was assumed to be worth something. Aside from putting up with concession after concession (mostly unnecessary), the "nic" tried to take one more concession, turning twenty years into three. The beneficiaries were 1800 pilots at AWA and some executives, all led by a drunk.

Were the concessions to lead to the ability to fly forever, minimizing the insult and/or more aircraft than even god can count, a different path might have been available, but to take away an irreplaceable resource, seniority, as in number of years, on top of the lowest compensation levels in history (adjusted for inflation), the loss of retirement and, for many, massive downward changes in benefits and to package the new structure as "relative seniority" when it was not even close, was just too much.

It is not all of ALPA's fault, despite providing incentives for lazy pilots to ride the cushy FPL vehicle. It used to be management that provided a place for those not wanting to fly or, in a few cases, those who should not fly. The union opened up some possibilities for those folk but that was not all. For instance, the east pilots allowed the shuttle dudes to stack the MEC, setting up a situation for them to access the pilot retirement, in essence, double dipping. But, mostly it was electing weak "leaders", people who, on witnessing one or two pilots with their hair on fire, would, in turn, set their own hair on fire. While I really cannot "blame" ALPA for some of this, the pilots were depending on ALPA, as franchisor, to keep some sort of reasonable order.

I don't blame Captain Prater for doing what he is doing. He is simply following advise from his lawyers, hoping to minimize the damage, though his "loyalty oath" thing, born from the moronic CLT reps, guaranteed disgust with ALPA forever. (Sometimes I wonder if Captain Prater secretly thinks ALPA needs competition.)

 

[AAA73Pilot]

They haven't, and I am no ALPA lover but I see us as being totally defenseless in an upcoming merger scenario with any other carrier if USAPA is on the property. I also don't happen to agree with USAPA's whole reason for being. I am sure you will come up with many other reasons, but you know the main one and won't even begin to pretend it is anything else- keeping the job I brought to the table. And FYI, the lawsuit is going well- I will retire soon.

Excellent bravado. Keep it up. If you're so sure you're going to retire soon, what does it matter to you if there is going to be another merger? As for USAPA, for some, you are correct. For others, you're so far from reality there is no point in rehashing it.

I would like to point out though, filing a lawsuit is easy, winning one is entirely something else.

 

[b737fo]

[quote name='EastUS' post='580673' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:37 AM'][quote name='b737fo' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:38 AM' post='580661'
Kind of reminds me of how "good" the APA was supposed to be over that other pesky CBA to those TWA'ers.


Hmm...I do see your point there...ALPA proved itself to be truly usefull for the poor TWA folks. Gee/Golly/Gosh: Exactly WHERE was that hugely powerfull, "National" Association with all of it's "United Fellow Pilots" when they needed them? ALPA at it's test-proven finest. Countless kudos to that august, and awesomely powerfull body yet again. A true cynic, not struck blind by the glory of Nic/ALPA, "might" even suggest that ALPA proved itself utterly worthless in yet another real-world, (as opposed to ACPC/"Concerned-Pilots-in-Fantasyland") situation there, and that they even just left the TWA guys out like yesterday's garbage...without really even trying to do anything...but: put your faith where you think best. I must fairly note on ALPA's behalf though, that any concern for the TWA people's seniority must logically have been of only "relative" interest to Herndon in any case, and that the tragic results for the TWA group might well have occurred even had American also been ALPA. It's truly only a "process"..supported only by "guidlines" and "policy" after all.[/quote]

Guidelines and policy is all that any union can offer now that there is a new law mandating final and binding arbitration between two different CBAs during a merger. So with that in mind item D in the "Objectives of USAPA" of the C&BL may be rendered moot in future mergers.

On another note I find it very interesting that aviation safety comes after DOH integration in the C&BL. Not a very good start toward promoting safety as a group.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Guidelines and policy is all that any union can offer now that there is a new law mandating final and binding arbitration between two different CBAs during a merger. So with that in mind item D in the "Objectives of USAPA" of the C&BL may be rendered moot in future mergers.

On another note I find it very interesting that aviation safety comes after DOH integration in the C&BL. Not a very good start toward promoting safety as a group.

Aviation safety always comes first. These items are in no particular order. In short, order has no meaning, it is just a list of objectives. Secondly, mandating "final and binding" arbitration under HR 2764 predicated only if the merger policy of that CBA is significantly different from A-M provisions: "so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny- Mohawk provisions."

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/HR2764_does_n..._members%20.htm

 

[hp_fa]

I don't have a dog in this hunt in any way, shape or form. But I still haven't seen any evidence that USAPA is anything more than a do-over on a number of fronts, such as:

1. Having control of your union.

A. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the way that the local MEC's operate largely through the power vested to those elected folks through the votes cast for them?

B. If the elected folks were not representing the will of the majority, why weren't they recalled from office, or was the majority just that apathetic until the results of the Nicolau Arbitration were announced?

2. Attempting an end-run on the Nicolau Arbitration ruling.

I understand that people vote for folks to represent their interests. But doesn't the electorate have a responsibility to make certain that they are indeed being represented according to their wishes?

How will USAPA be of any help to any of you in future consolidation? Do you think ALPA is going to be inclined to treat USAPA nicely if US Airways somehow gets involved in a transaction with another airline that has ALPA on the property?

From where I sit on the sidelines I see arguments along the lines of "ALPA costs too much", "ALPA pays secretaries what, or more than, pilots get paid" and arguments such as those. If the membership really feels that way, why don't they have their elected reps place items on the ALPA agenda to move their operations to either a strip mall or warehouse space? Or insist that all secretaries and office staff need to leave ALPA for other employment after five years so they never advance up any pay scale based on longevity? (Of course all the institutional knowledge of how things really get done gets flushed when people turnover in jobs at that extent.)

The bottom line as I see it is you guys feel sold out by the people you elected to the MEC leadership positions, you didn't pay attention to warning signs when things were still going pretty well, and took no action when you could or should have to have kept the situation under control before Nicolau ever heard the arbitration proceeding.

Tell me objectively why what I am viewing is incorrect.

 

[L1011Ret]

I don't have a dog in this hunt in any way, shape or form. But I still haven't seen any evidence that USAPA is anything more than a do-over on a number of fronts, such as:

1. Having control of your union.

A. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the way that the local MEC's operate largely through the power vested to those elected folks through the votes cast for them?

B. If the elected folks were not representing the will of the majority, why weren't they recalled from office, or was the majority just that apathetic until the results of the Nicolau Arbitration were announced?

2. Attempting an end-run on the Nicolau Arbitration ruling.

I understand that people vote for folks to represent their interests. But doesn't the electorate have a responsibility to make certain that they are indeed being represented according to their wishes?

How will USAPA be of any help to any of you in future consolidation? Do you think ALPA is going to be inclined to treat USAPA nicely if US Airways somehow gets involved in a transaction with another airline that has ALPA on the property?

From where I sit on the sidelines I see arguments along the lines of "ALPA costs too much", "ALPA pays secretaries what, or more than, pilots get paid" and arguments such as those. If the membership really feels that way, why don't they have their elected reps place items on the ALPA agenda to move their operations to either a strip mall or warehouse space? Or insist that all secretaries and office staff need to leave ALPA for other employment after five years so they never advance up any pay scale based on longevity? (Of course all the institutional knowledge of how things really get done gets flushed when people turnover in jobs at that extent.)

The bottom line as I see it is you guys feel sold out by the people you elected to the MEC leadership positions, you didn't pay attention to warning signs when things were still going pretty well, and took no action when you could or should have to have kept the situation under control before Nicolau ever heard the arbitration proceeding.

Tell me objectively why what I am viewing is incorrect.

Well said, it wasent' NIC that did them in, they did it to themselves. There isn't enough collective wisdom to see what they did to themselves.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I don't have a dog in this hunt in any way, shape or form. But I still haven't seen any evidence that USAPA is anything more than a do-over on a number of fronts, such as:

1. Having control of your union.

A. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the way that the local MEC's operate largely through the power vested to those elected folks through the votes cast for them?

B. If the elected folks were not representing the will of the majority, why weren't they recalled from office, or was the majority just that apathetic until the results of the Nicolau Arbitration were announced?

Actually, the MEC may be elected by the "rank and file" but the MEC works for ALPA National. Just like the AFA. Works the same way. YOU elect them, but they can do anything they want until the next election or recall. As far as the MEC not representing the "will" of the majority...the majority insisted on date of hire and the MEC complied. However, for the results of the arbitration to be effective it still takes the majority to vote it in under ALPA merger policy. That is also the way it works.

Unfortunately someone forgot to tell everyone else how unionism works and it takes situations like this to remind them.

As far as apathy, that may be a small part. The real issue of seniority became the last straw, however, and now we get an election.

As far as a "do over", that is part of the process, regardless of what anyone thinks.

2. Attempting an end-run on the Nicolau Arbitration ruling.

I understand that people vote for folks to represent their interests. But doesn't the electorate have a responsibility to make certain that they are indeed being represented according to their wishes?

How will USAPA be of any help to any of you in future consolidation? Do you think ALPA is going to be inclined to treat USAPA nicely if US Airways somehow gets involved in a transaction with another airline that has ALPA on the property?

It's not an "end-run". Again, it's how the system WORKS! You're aluding to everyone that, even though the system of "gambling" the CBA employs is a "just" method of adjudication without any appeal makes for strange bedfellows in our system of justice. The electorate is doing JUST WHAT YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD DO. Vote for folks to represent our best interests.

From where I sit on the sidelines I see arguments along the lines of "ALPA costs too much", "ALPA pays secretaries what, or more than, pilots get paid" and arguments such as those. If the membership really feels that way, why don't they have their elected reps place items on the ALPA agenda to move their operations to either a strip mall or warehouse space? Or insist that all secretaries and office staff need to leave ALPA for other employment after five years so they never advance up any pay scale based on longevity? (Of course all the institutional knowledge of how things really get done gets flushed when people turnover in jobs at that extent.)

Nice thought. However, institutions eventally grow to large for their own good and eventually break apart. It happens to all matter in the universe. They are born, grow old and eventually die. Unions, companies, people and governments have no monopoly on perpetuity.

The bottom line as I see it is you guys feel sold out by the people you elected to the MEC leadership positions, you didn't pay attention to warning signs when things were still going pretty well, and took no action when you could or should have to have kept the situation under control before Nicolau ever heard the arbitration proceeding.

If you call IGNORANCE of the MEC as being sold out then I guess I would agree with you. And again, we are taking care of that now....with an election for a NEW union. WE HAVE THAT RIGHT! And who are you and everyone else to tell us HOW TO VOTE? Don't we have that right...for whatever reason? That is what "secret" ballots are all about in any democracy. NO?

Tell me objectively why what I am viewing is incorrect.

I would say you are naive. Life is NOT a perfect world.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Well said, it wasent' NIC that did them in, they did it to themselves. There isn't enough collective wisdom to see what they did to themselves.

So now we can't "fix" what is wrong unless we stay in ALPA? What kind of logic is that? We've learned our lessons the hard way and we're fixing that. Jealous? Go back into retirement and relive your past life as a TWA guy all over again, will ya?