ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[autofixer]

No ever since the day we aquired your sorry arses we have been stagnet we were upgrading left and right and now nothing. The e190 AND tHE b757 SLOT WERE SUPPOSE TO BE SHARED not the way you guys made out all we got was a IOU. No personal greed it is you forgot were your sorry arse was 2 and 1/2 years ago..

A literary giant!

 

[P51Pilot]

No ever since the day we aquired your sorry arses we have been stagnet we were upgrading left and right and now nothing. The e190 AND tHE b757 SLOT WERE SUPPOSE TO BE SHARED not the way you guys made out all we got was a IOU. No personal greed it is you forgot were your sorry arse was 2 and 1/2 years ago..

The company wouldn't ignore profitable expansion. With $100 dollar oil, there is no where to expand out of the low yield environment of PHX and LAS and that is why the upgrades and deliveries stopped. Of course its easier to justify the attempted land grab by blaming it on the merger.

 

[zethya]

"Pilots have much to lose during mergers..." - A USA TODAY Article:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/t..._N.htm?csp=N008

 

[jtwhat]

Ah...My mistake then..I'd thought that you were speaking earlier about "Honor", and not merely raging on over what you personally feel entitled you. Sorry.

"The e190 AND tHE b757 SLOT WERE SUPPOSE TO BE SHARED not the way you guys made out all we got was a IOU." Why haven't you taken that up with your ALPA Reps? The folks out your way have always held that "everything" they do/have done is the line pilots' fault..so..Have them fix it for you. "YOU are ALPA" after all.

Are you kiddin let see we arbitrated it we agreed to the process sounds familiar. We are not whiners because it didnt go our way we didnt fight it. like i said and will keep saying you east wipes have no honor and autofixer why dont you spell check this for me and check my grammar and sit there like a good career F/O

 

[EastUS]

Are you kiddin let see we arbitrated it we agreed to the process sounds familiar. We are not whiners because it didnt go our way we didnt fight it. like i said and will keep saying you east wipes have no honor and autofixer why dont you spell check this for me and check my grammar and sit there like a good career F/O

"like i said and will keep saying you east wipes have no honor" OK. You'll perhaps forgive me if I choose to suffer little personal devastation as a result, and will instead, offer the following:

"IF you're not part of the Solution....... you're part of the Problem"

PS: Shucks..If I didn't "know better"...I'd have to note that your literary style and sentiments perfectly echo those of the sadly-departed-from-these-boards AWA320 😉.... but that's not important in any case. "A rose, by any other name..would smell as sweet" 😉

Have a good one.

 

[319hitter]

Ah..the standard: "yet are awa pilots are blocked from advancing"......." because you(meaning every last east pilot that have no honor)"

Please tell me that you've actually noticed the irony inherent in whining about your personal greed not being instantly attended to, and yet following immediately with hypocritical tripe about your self-assigned, and evidently imaginary "honor" 🙄

I'd suggest that we simply agree to differ on the proper definition of Honor. I've yet to see any dictionary list such as "It's ALL about MEEEeeee!!!" 😉 I've always held the belief that it's more about doing what's Right......I think it best to stick with doing what's Right..and we certainly are worlds apart on that issue.

I keep on hearing that USAPA will bring us unconflicted representation. I see a string of posts like this and it is obvious that USAPA is built on conflict --- the conflict between the east and west. Obviously, USAPA’s solution to this conflict is to stuff the east’s solution down the throats of the west. This, of course, won’t end the conflict, it will simply continue for as long as the carrier is around. Even assuming the Company buys into this supposed solution, which I doubt, we will be in litigation for years, and you can chant “Rakestraw†all you want, but I don’t see anywhere that it discusses changing a final and binding arbitration award to the advantage of one side.

It seems to me that USAPA is not going to bring us “unconflicted†representation, it will give us “isolated†representation. Isolated from the other pilot groups in ALPA, isolated from the other unions on the property-- all of which are national multi carrier unions and all of which have been attacked at one time or another by this law firm we selected-- and isolated from the rest of the labor movement. A divided organization with no outside support doesn’t strike me as an especially effective way to deal with management. I suppose, though, that according to this Constitution no-one has voted on, we will hire a “professional negotiatorâ€. Would someone tell me who our professional negotiator is and what pilot contracts he negotiated? Or do we only get to know that after the vote?

 

[P51Pilot]

I keep on hearing that USAPA will bring us unconflicted representation. I see a string of posts like this and it is obvious that USAPA is built on conflict --- the conflict between the east and west. Obviously, USAPA’s solution to this conflict is to stuff the east’s solution down the throats of the west. This, of course, won’t end the conflict, it will simply continue for as long as the carrier is around. Even assuming the Company buys into this supposed solution, which I doubt, we will be in litigation for years, and you can chant “Rakestraw†all you want, but I don’t see anywhere that it discusses changing a final and binding arbitration award to the advantage of one side.

It seems to me that USAPA is not going to bring us “unconflicted†representation, it will give us “isolated†representation. Isolated from the other pilot groups in ALPA, isolated from the other unions on the property-- all of which are national multi carrier unions and all of which have been attacked at one time or another by this law firm we selected-- and isolated from the rest of the labor movement. A divided organization with no outside support doesn’t strike me as an especially effective way to deal with management. I suppose, though, that according to this Constitution no-one has voted on, we will hire a “professional negotiatorâ€. Would someone tell me who our professional negotiator is and what pilot contracts he negotiated? Or do we only get to know that after the vote?

tripnic, rhighness is that you! 😛h34r:

 

[AAA73Pilot]

It seems to me that USAPA is not going to bring us “unconflictedâ€￾ representation, it will give us “isolatedâ€￾ representation. Isolated from the other pilot groups in ALPA, isolated from the other unions on the property-- all of which are national multi carrier unions and all of which have been attacked at one time or another by this law firm we selected-- and isolated from the rest of the labor movement. A divided organization with no outside support doesn’t strike me as an especially effective way to deal with management. I suppose, though, that according to this Constitution no-one has voted on, we will hire a “professional negotiatorâ€￾. Would someone tell me who our professional negotiator is and what pilot contracts he negotiated? Or do we only get to know that after the vote?

Another "New" ACPC poster. Welcome to USAviation.

Isolated? Where are we now? You have a UAL type who doesn't want me/us. I don't get that warm feeling already. As far as isolated from ALPA, well that is ALPA's choice isn't it? Isolated from other unions on the property? Only in your dreams. Typical FUD. Why am I not surprised? But the real killer in your post is isolated from the labor movement? I got news for you, the "Labor movement" has been in decline throughout my lifetime. What is total union membership in the USA now? A whole lot less than when I was in school.

We may be divided, as you say, but at least it will be us making determinations for our future. Not having to get approval from anybody. As for the C&BL's. You haven't done your research. After the election you will have the opportunity to vote on it. You can't have a ratification election until USAPA is voted in. Can't tell you who the negotiator is. Nothing to negotiate yet. However, if we're elected I have been told there are 3 firms vying for our business. Guess what? You will get to vote on that also.

What strikes me throughout your first post is the unabashed FUD!! Right out of the ACPC playbook. Looking forward to more.

Yea, it does sound a lot like tripnic or rhighness

 

[sharktooth]

The principle is that your seniority only covers the jobs you brought to the equation, and slotted by relative position at that. None of your furloughed pilots can have an active pilots job- under ANY circumstance. Enjoy.

The nic slotting was NOT relative position and you know it.

Relative position demands the same contracts be in place. The east pilots should have had another 20% pilots just to equal the west pilots contract. USAPA might never have existed had the west pilots not been greedy. Now, the die is cast. Likely DOH or update your resume. I hear Herbs airline is hiring......

 

[EastUS]

I keep on hearing that USAPA will bring us unconflicted representation. I see a string of posts like this and it is obvious that USAPA is built on conflict you can chant “Rakestraw†all you want, but I don’t see anywhere that it discusses changing a final and binding arbitration award to the advantage of one side.

"I keep on hearing that USAPA will bring us unconflicted representation. I see a string of posts like this and it is obvious that USAPA is built on conflict.." So was The United States of America. Your point being? The nation was ultimately, further solidified by the "unpleasantness" between North and South. Again..Your point? I'd personally be fine with getting rid of Alpo in ANY case...period. If you're seeking the direct cause of the present "conflict"..you need look no further than Herndon/Alpa/et al. I couldn't help but notice that you entirely eschewed considering any mention of the Alpa-produced issues that have provided such fertile ground for the gestation of proper crops of conflict. It's merely "the conflict betweent the east and west" in your view??? How delightfully "simple" of you old boy 😉

"Obviously, USAPA's solution to this conflict is to stuff the east’s solution down the throats of the west" Interesting notion, and we differ on that, but no matter. It's VERY clearly ALPA's "solution" to strive mightily to "stuff" their patently unworkable, and insanely manufactured BS down everyone's throats..but that's again...evidently just fine with you?

"It seems to me that USAPA is not going to bring us “unconflicted†representation," I'd most certainly hope NOT. ANY organization that's intent on conflict avoidance at all costs is inherently dysfunctional as any "representative" body. Dissent's to be encouraged, and dutifully addressed. Hmmm..this would prove rather antithetical to bloated morons in some TRULY "isolated" enviornment, demanding "Loyalty Oaths", arbitrarilly removing elected Reps at their slightest whim, and generally pursuing the path of insignificant, third-world dictators....Sound at all familar to you?

"..it will give us “isolated†representation. Isolated from the other pilot groups in ALPA" Aww shucks...and all of those said groups have so effectively banded together in the past, under the enlightened guidance from Herndon, to accomplish....ummm?..WHAT was it exactly?...Meanwhile..we all know how much the poor, pitifull people at American and Southwest are starving..ALPA should properly gather up "United" ALPA contributions for those hopelessly cast out, and totally lost suffering souls, that have declined salvation from Herndon...

"Even assuming the Company buys into this supposed solution, which I doubt.." The company's already on record as noting that they must negotiate with the properly certified CBA...Doubt away if it amuses you to do so.

"you can chant “Rakestraw†all you want, but I don’t see anywhere that it discusses changing a final and binding arbitration award to the advantage of one side." It's subject to contract. I simply love that "logic" though, which amounts to: "ALPA's intent on temporarilly obfuscating the truth that Nic's their precious little baby-boy, and they'll shove it down everyone's throats ASAP...BUT (here's where it gets purely hysterical)..It's magically best to keep the worthless bastiges that so brilliantly produced this monstrosity around"...That's past being merely "Cute" and even light years beyond the top shelf of highly-scented "Just Plain Adorable" = "The Scent of Choice for only the most Magnificent of Morons"

"A divided organization with no outside support doesn’t strike me as an especially effective way to deal with management." You've just defined ALPA with the utmost perfection..thank you. Umm...or wait..I may be missing something here; Please refresh our collective memories as to all the fabulous feats accomplished by ALPA for us all in contemporary times via pensions?..work rules?...fabulous contracts?...What?... am I merely, mindlessly missing some great achievement here? Please....speak..... slowly, as I'm.... just..... a ....stupid Line Pilot who's clearly.... unable to think for himself, and I'm only relying on the actual history of the past two decades, and not Alpoid FUD..so..please be gentle

"...we will hire a “professional negotiatorâ€. Nuts!!..Just when I was wanting to throw more wholly untrained, and overweening egos into the fray..instead of any actual professionals. I hate when that happens..What fun would it be to have even the slightest semblance of any successful, and gainfull negotiations EVER happen?..We can avoid that via employing the tried-and-true methods of Alpo, which have so clearly profited all of us for so long..Sigh...You're right...Amateur Alpoids are clearly the best course..Sheesh!

"Would someone tell me who our professional negotiator is and what pilot contracts he negotiated? " Good question sir. WHO/what outfit would YOU like to hire? Unlike Alpo, USAPA's based upon membership participation and input. Either contribute, or cease whining as if you're just another spineless Alpoid..desperately awaiting the next utterences from his/her "Masters"..and actually contribute your THOUGHTS..as fears offer little functionality during times of "conflict"..or..are you just awaiting the next Herndon FUD to tack "support" on to? 🙄

PS: A much as I love chuckling at all the fear-mongering/disinformation..and quality BS...You guys must be seriously scared of the upcoming election...make that terrified...After enduring MANY (too many) years of your collectively spineless/lying/wholly innefective BS..I'll have to admit to some visceral enjoyment from that. 😉

 

[CactusFlyr]

The company wouldn't ignore profitable expansion. With $100 dollar oil, there is no where to expand out of the low yield environment of PHX and LAS and that is why the upgrades and deliveries stopped. Of course its easier to justify the attempted land grab by blaming it on the merger.

Since when is a purchase a land grab.

 

[EastUS]

Since when is a purchase a land grab.

Hmm..That's easy = "I'll take Manhattan"/your seniority..for $26 bucks worth of beads/pay parity...you stupid "Indians/Easties"

 

[sharktooth]

I keep on hearing that USAPA will bring us unconflicted representation.

Sir, no one who is cogent ever said that.

Conflict is good. Ideas need a platform for display, test and modification. The essence of democracy. The standing man in Norman Rockwell's famous painting, stating his thoughts and ideas. It is on what America was built.

ALPA does not allow that. Their way or the highway.

We choose the highway.

Join us or not, have a good day.

 

[CactusFlyr]

"PERSONAL AGENDA"? Pot meet kettle. The ONLY AGENDA you seek is OUR JOBS and you and your ALPA "brothers and sisters" would like nothing more than to see us FAIL so that would be MORE for your company and secure YOUR job.

NOT HAPPENING! You support US ONLY IF IT MEANS TOTING THE 767jetz line. THAT IS THE ALPA LINE!

When YOU see my years of service the same as yours, when YOU strike the SAME time as we do, when ALL of us have the SAME contracts with the same pay and working conditions as you do, talk to me then and we'll have something in common.

Until then, go back to preaching the virtues of your ALPA United pilots. Because IF US Airways ever BUYS United, (don't think we can't), our pilot group will have the upper hand. I can fly that 777 as well as you can! I have the experience to boot!

A PERSONAL AGENDA? What you say is TAKE ONE FOR THE GIPPER! Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, Western, Republic, Ozark and many others suffered under ALPA the same way. NO LONGER!

What will you say if the overwhelming vote is for USAPA? We're not REAL airline pilots? We're not a REAL union? We don't know what we're doing? The West pilots were screwed so ALPA will support them? The NWA pilots don't rank as high as the real DELTA pilots so they should go junior when they merge because the "career expectations" were so much higher? Where will it end? You tell me!

The West "disenfranchized" the East by wanting something that they had nothing left to loose on....arbitration. East wanted DOH/restrictions.

West figured out the worst THEY would get is that East was arguing DOH/restrictions (not being truly stapled to the bottom) so it was better to take the Las Vegas gamble and go to arbitration. You know, throw it against the wall and see what sticks. The HUGE mistake our MEC did was not forcing ALPA national to accept our proposition as a basis and work from there or we're OUT OF ALPA!

Our MEC was STUPID! The pilots, however, have been trustworthy TOO LONG! And now we are where we are....becoming what unionism is all about....sweat equity. And THAT is why we're loathed by ALPA PILOTS! Go shovel it somewhere else.

Look, I have been in the training center all week. I have been talking to ALL the pilots. It should be an overwhelming vote for USAPA. USAPA has EVERYTHING ALPA provides for less. (NOT CHEAPER, the SAME OR BETTER PRODUCTS).

WE WILL NOT SOLVE THIS PROBLEM IN ALPA. Don't believe me. When the vote comes out you will see.

I know EVERY ALPA PILOT thinks US AIRWAYS pilots can't make an intelligent, informed decision. They also think that the "founding" of a union should NOT be based on an arbitration award.

The award may be the lever, but the CHOICE is EVERYONE'S. The West have been trained to want the East to take an economic solution based on our attrition and our seniority. NEVER! When you understand that, SIR, you will be a true union man.

FACT: The West want their "East" brothers and sisters to pay with OUR seniority because the economic windfall between our two groups is too great and EVERY PILOT HERE knows that the company cannot and will not make up that gap. So they want accelerated seniority on the BACKS of their "brothers and sisters" here on the East. If that is UNIONISM, I would rather have NO UNION AT ALL!

Until then, our UNION looks forward to COMPETING with ALPA PILOTS in the marketplace. Just like all the OTHER independents do. With the price of oil climbing, that shouldn't be TOO hard. Delta and NWA pilots are already at each others throat. You soon will be too with whomever you merge with.

US Airways has over 3 billion in the bank and a line of credit that was established when the Delta merger was planned. We're NOT hurting!

If you think your seniority at United is more valuable than ours at US Airways, then we will ALWAYS BE COMPETING!

And that, SIR, is a FACT!

Enough with the pot meet kettle stuff. Those of us on the WEST (and our reasoning)are nothing like the east goones.

 

[sharktooth]

....are nothing like the east goones.

Do dat be PHX eubonics? Is it spanglish? or mutterings from slurred fingers.