Amfa Ballot Count Questions

[aafsc]

aafsc, I suggest you look at your own situation before you bash UAL situation. Almost all of the low cost airlines have outsourced their fleet service functions to outside contractors. How long do think AA is gonna to keep you above market rate unskilled guys employed?
How much of the paycuts that are coming for fleet service are you gonna be willing to take? I was talking today to some ex-fleet service people, who are now AMT's. They told me one of the reasons they got out of fleet service is that one of these days soon, fleet service will be outsourced entirely to contractors ,or they said the only way AA would keep it own fleet service people is if the TWU agrees to pay you guys only minimum wage and all part time. Are you fleet people going to be willing to strike when the ax falls?

AMFA's situation at UAL is like being handed control of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg. AMFA is trying the best they can. The UAL AMFA membership had a choice accept the contract or strike. Unlike here at AA our choice was accept the contract or Jim Little will ratify it anyway. At least AMFA threatened a strike and even voted No on the first TA. When was the last time the TWU even hinted at strike at AA. Actually, us AMFA supporters were informed last month by UAL AMFA reps about the situation at UAL and what could possibly happen. So today's news isn't entirely shocking.

[post="274477"][/post]​

Princess, Even the LCCs have their own ramp at their large cities. All airlines can and do get by with outsourcing at small cities. As for market rates, AA advertised here in MIA (with a very large immigrant population) ramp for $8/hr temporary. They got no takers (just like USAir). FEDEX starts there ramp here in MIA at $12/hr. No one in their right mind is going to work in this miserable heat and humidity for $8/hr. AA was forced to recall everyone (many refused) and we still have MANY holes in the manning. I know people who work in warehouses who make the same or more than us. They have less responsibility and their jobs are a lot easier. So market rate wise, we are below market. If AA wanted to pay minimum wage as you say I can tell you that the hubs would cease to function. It is interesting to note that SW pays their ramp $25/hr-top out and they staff ALL their cities full time. Maybe AA can, like SW, outsource heavy maintenance and pay all us toped out rampers $25/hr. 😱 With the massacre at UA and that airline emerging from bk shortly, AA will come back for more. How much and what can be cut is yet to be seen. I am educated enough to find a job starting what I am making now. When it is time to make the switch, I will do so on my own terms. I don't need AA to survive and have a decent income. Do you?

By the way, did not the events concerning the IAM at USAir paralell the recent events with AMFA at UA? Both in bk, both voted no the first time, and one(IAM) voted on, and accepted, the last company offer and the other(AMFA), voted on a TA and accepted. Why do you criticize the IAM at US when AMFA did basically the same at UAL. At least the IAM never made false promises of $60/hr and a hundred grand. And what will your reaction be when the AMTs either get replaced at NW or capitulate to management's very steep demands.

 

[Birdman]

This LOA agreed to by the TWU truly marked a sad day for the employees of AA as was the 1000 credited to AMFA at UAL. CIO, keep score all you want. I will take a union that fights for my profession long before a docile lapdog union like yours. BTW, remember the "Strike If Provoked" t-shirts the company made the union take off because it was to inflamatory?


From: You Know
To: You Know
Re: One Time Relief from Job Security Provisions

March 31, 2003

This will confirm our understanding reached during the negotiations leading up
to the agreement signed on April 15, 2003

During these negotiations, the parties agreed to lift the system job protection provision of the various agreements to enable the Company to reduce the number of employees in each title group by the number required to reach the
negotiated costs savings. The chart below illustrates the number of reductions
by Title Group. Additionally, we have listed the newly established system job protection dates that will be in effect once the reductions associated with the changes have been completed.

Number of Reductions Title Group Number of
Title GroupReductions

Title I 1371 Technical Specialists 9
Title II 0Flight Dispatchers 5
Title III 1856
Ground/Simulator Instructors 110
Title IV Included in Title IIIMeteorologists 0
TitleV 57
Simulator Technicians 9

Following the reduction of the above number of employees, the parties agreed to
modify the dates of system protection for the remaining employees to the dates
indicated below. In addition, the date may be adjusted either backward or 6760
forward at the conclusion of the applicable reductions. The new date must be agreed upon by both parties, if not, the dates listed will be imposed.

Title Groups New System Protection Date

Title I and Title III September 24, 1998
Ground/Simulator Instructors March 01, 1998
Simulator TechniciansAugust 23, 1999
All Others March 01, 2001

 

[Birdman]

Maybe AMFA should concentrate more on being a protector of deferred compensation (pensions and other retirement benefits, ESOPs, etc.) and jobs instead of just being a promoter (advertiser). It appears to me that AMFA lacks any ability to devise a strategy to do this given the fact that they state "were better off in bankruptcy". Going into bankruptcy allowed UA to take compensation earned in the past. So in effect the people at UA took a retroactive paycut. I don't remember ALPA, AFA, or the IAM telling their members at UA that they will be better off in bankrutpcy. At AA, there is an effort to keep what we earned (our pensions) by allowing extra time for funding. If you think losing a pension is a good thing, there is a website where you can read the testimony of many UA people directed at elected officials. When you think about it, maybe AMFA is right when they say "were better off in bankruptcy". AMFA is better off in bankruptcy because they can just absolve themselves of any responsibility by blaming the judge for the massacre while collecting dues. Ever heard of the song "Money for nothing"?

[post="274479"][/post]​

I respect the decision of the members of AMFA. If they think they would be better off in bankruptcy thats their business. Personally, I voted no on the AA concessions not because I prefered bankruptcy. Isn't it funny the company said if just one of the unions turn down their contract we'll go to bankruptcy. Well, one did and what happened? BTW, who gave up retroactive vacation? Keep telling yourself, AMFA bad, TWU good.

 

[aafsc]

Dear Mr. Fleet Service Clerk, don't you think we also know many AMT's at UAL? We know what happened with the iam and the "No Concessions" rally at SFO and around the country on May 8, 2002. We know that on April 11, 2003 the iam and UAL agreed to the horriffic "Restructuring Agreement" that let UAL outsource any/all its maintenance, this T/A also doomed both IMC and OAK Maintenance Bases to close permanently. The agreement was ratified at UAL on May 1, 2003 with the iam in power. GOT IT??? AMFA did not get on the UAL property until July 15, 2003 So stop with your moronic twu mantra that AMFA agreed to these fatal sellout agreements. We know who it was. All AMFA is guilty off is inheriting and attemping to enforce a "scorched earth" concessionary contract at UAL, left for them when the iam got the boot.

Now we will turn your blind twu eyes to the twu. All these airlines have been licking their chops to stick their employees with the type of concessions the twu gave away YEARS ago!!!! For gods sake are you dense!!! B-scale, Flex Benifits, No paid lunch, Pre-funding, De-ice, Pushbacks, SRP/OSM scam.....these are just some of the concessions the twu gave away YEARS ago that are just now being implemented at other carriers today (except the SRP/OSM scam, AA still holds that beauty all alone). Then you take our current abortion of a sellout concessionary contract..... I won't even go there. You and your twu buddies can go take a hike. You have nothing to be proud of, and you've got nothing to say. Your sellout union the twu included with the iam have brought this industry to its knees by their continued 23+ years of sellouts. SO SHUT UP....... before you look more like a "baggage transfer engineer" flunkie then you all ready do. The industrial unions started this mess, and documented facts don't lie. Go back to the AA ramp, and leave the mechanics at UAL alone.

[post="274480"][/post]​

Your mighty AMFA has been at NW for 7 or 8 years. Lets just wait a month or 2 to see how they do? When they get annililated, who are you going to blame? The IAM, the "baggage transfer engineers", now I hear they are blaming the pilots; everyone but themselves. AMFA will take credit for the big pay and pension raises in the agreement they have now but somehow all the bad things that have happened in this contract is either the IAMs fault, or the rampers fault, pilots, etc. The big lie that ramp rides the mechanic coatails is just that a lie. NW is lining up replacements and will be able to fly through an AMFA strike (if there is one).

Maybe it would be better if the AA AMTs went AMFA. That way, AA could outsource all of them and give me a big fat raise. Yes, it is past time you go your own separate way. We "baggage transfer engineers" need to disassociate from you.

 

[aafsc]

I respect the decision of the members of AMFA. If they think they would be better off in bankruptcy thats their business. Personally, I voted no on the AA concessions not because I prefered bankruptcy. Isn't it funny the company said if just one of the unions turn down their contract we'll go to bankruptcy. Well, one did and what happened? BTW, who gave up retroactive vacation? Keep telling yourself, AMFA bad, TWU good.

[post="274491"][/post]​

I disagree. When AMFA pushed for bankruptcy at UA, it became the business of every other non AMFA employee. If it just affected AMFA members then it would be just their business. And we lost 1 week of vacation since 2003. Which means to date we lost 3 weeks. The earned pension benefits the UA people lost were earned over a lifetime.

 

[awayfrmitall]

When AMFA pushed for bankruptcy at UA,

[post="274493"][/post]​

Boy are you dense.... UAL was in BK a good 7 Months before AMFA was certified at the carrier.... Better go back and check your timeline history.

 

[aafsc]

Boy are you dense.... UAL was in BK a good 7 Months before AMFA was certified at the carrier.... Better go back and check your timeline history.

[post="274499"][/post]​

Perhaps I should reword my statement. The AMFA SUPPORTERS were pushing for bankruptcy at UA. They did this when the IAM brought back that TA that called for a 7% paycut.

 

[Hackman]

Your mighty AMFA has been at NW for 7 or 8 years. Lets just wait a month or 2 to see how they do? When they get annililated, who are you going to blame? The IAM, the "baggage transfer engineers", now I hear they are blaming the pilots; everyone but themselves. AMFA will take credit for the big pay and pension raises in the agreement they have now but somehow all the bad things that have happened in this contract is either the IAMs fault, or the rampers fault, pilots, etc. The big lie that ramp rides the mechanic coatails is just that a lie. NW is lining up replacements and will be able to fly through an AMFA strike (if there is one).

Maybe it would be better if the AA AMTs went AMFA. That way, AA could outsource all of them and give me a big fat raise. Yes, it is past time you go your own separate way. We "baggage transfer engineers" need to disassociate from you.

[post="274492"][/post]​

Yeah, its kinda of sick how a carrier can drag out negotiations for years when they feel like it, but when the tables are turned its all of a sudden its an impasse after 7 months of negotiations. The mighty AMFA brought back a contract at NWA that started to repair the damage the iam did by outsourcing the DC-10's and the 747's to China in 1994. That's right the iam started the outsourcing, and the industrial union dreamers exspect AMFA to come in and stop it all in one contract. AMFA doubled the multlplier for the NWA mechanics pensions, and raised the pay far and beyond what was ever expected against a PEB no less. The twu meanwhile, piggybacked AA along for the ride and still could not match what AMFA accomplished at NWA. Why is it the twu never leads, and always falters for 23 years of concessions??? Why hasn't AMFA been removed from NWA if they are as bad as you twu believers claim??? A lot of questions, but no real answers....as expected.

You seem to be an expert on what will happen, but then I forgot that your an "educated" ramper sweating his tail off down in MIA on a 120 degree ramp. This UAL vote was disappointing, very true, until you look at what kind of contract AMFA has to work with at UAL. The desimated and inherited contract left by the iam. Just like when the twu gets ousted at AA, the twu/AA sellout is effective until December 2008, and that's that. So why is it when AA goes AMFA, manAAgement will outsource all our work and everyone will lose their job??? Contract will then be thrown out??? What will drive this smarty??? Same old twu lies is right. Does it ever stop??? I hope your kids aren't tought to be liars like you are.

NWA might go ahead and try to bring the scabs, I think EAL tried the same thing. NWA M@R will deal with that bridge when it comes.

 

[Hackman]

Perhaps I should reword my statement. The AMFA SUPPORTERS were pushing for bankruptcy at UA. They did this when the IAM brought back that TA that called for a 7% paycut.

[post="274508"][/post]​

I don't know if this link still works aafsc:

http://www.iamll1781.org/pdf/tradewinds/JUNJUL02a.pdf

Its several pics of the iam "Fighting Machinists" LL1781 having a "No Concessions" Rally at SFO on May 8, 2002. Funny I don't see one AMFA sign or any AMFA members up on the stage with the iam International officers (one of whom is Buffy the AMFA slayer I believe). So you might want to rethink a bit, I'm sure some more refined twu BS will come to mind genius.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

I worked at EAL. So I know from experience that airline employees are not better off in bankruptcy.

[post="274442"][/post]​

If I remember correctly, Eastern did not declare bankruptcy until after everyone went on strike. So, how would you know what the bankruptcy was like at Eastern, unless you were working for Eastern during the bankruptcy? That makes you a SCAB! How dare you come on these boards pretending to be a unionist when you SCABBED at the NEW EASTERN!
:rant:

 

[aafsc]

If I remember correctly, Eastern did not declare bankruptcy until after everyone went on strike. So, how would you know what the bankruptcy was like at Eastern, unless you were working for Eastern during the bankruptcy? That makes you a SCAB! How dare you come on these boards pretending to be a unionist when you SCABBED at the NEW EASTERN!
:rant:

[post="274539"][/post]​

You are right EAL did declare bk after the strike. And NO, I am not a scab. I walked the picket line. If I was a scab, it would be kind of hard working in MIA for a number of years with many ex-EAL people. There were a couple of EAL scabs at AA and ,well lets just say, that they were not shown much hospitality. How the EAL bankruptcy harmed the EAL employees is when the pensions were turned over to the government. I had three relatives who also worked at EAL, all 20+ years of service and there pensions are between $300-$400 dollars a month. That is why I firmly believe that pensions must be protected. Also, some employees were not paid for some work performed the week before the strike.

And Princess, why do you call USAir people who voted yes for a concessionary contract in bankruptcy" dirty rotten yes voting scabs" but call the UA people who did the same thing "people who had a choice"? What is the difference between the two groups?

 

[AMFAMAN]

Your mighty AMFA has been at NW for 7 or 8 years.

[post="274492"][/post]​

6 years today.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Perhaps I should reword my statement. The AMFA SUPPORTERS were pushing for bankruptcy at UA. They did this when the IAM brought back that TA that called for a 7% paycut.

[post="274508"][/post]​

Any proof or just Team twu drunken babblings you over heard.

 

[seed]

Did either side truely believe the "mighty AMFA" would be held responsible for their TA at UAL by their advocates? AMFA has mirrored the other concessionary contracts, except for their "snap back" clause that was hidden....at least I think it was hidden...right?

 

[twuer]

I know this is a UAL topic but I must intervene for a moment..........

Give me a freakin' break. Everyone knows that AMFA and it's almighty leaders were screaming BK.

What's worse is that now the union members at UAL got much worse of a deal plus more of their members on the street, AND they make less than us TWU members. You AMFA lovers cry and cry and whine, until it's almost nauseating, at the TWU concessionary package but when the shoe is on the other foot, hey, this concession thing ain't so bad.

HYPOCRITS!!!!!!!

There is NOTHING you can say to justify anything amfa does. They have proven themselves unworthy to represent anyone at this point. Delle and his cronies are in way over their heads. They have once again mislead the members.