AMT compensation

[will fix for food]

Sure there are tens of thousands making it on far less but i bet they dont live in New York.

So all the 100s of thousands of people who live in New York make more than 32/hour?

That sounds like an incredible statement.

But whatever, I know it's expensive and I fully support a geo for the cities like NY (and mine).

And with that I am going back to lurking, because I tried to make my point the best I could and If you didn't or don't want to understand it, it really doesn't matter.

 

[will fix for food]

I would think that with the responsibility of what we do for a living you would also consider us worthy of a wage that would allow us to move out from under Mommy and Daddys roof and live comfortably. If you live in New York and work for Eagle you live with Mommy and Daddy, unless you landed a spouse with a really good job. Eagle was never considered a career, it was considered a step towards a career. People who hired on to Eagle looked at it as OJT for a couple of years to get the experience they need to get to the majors. Willing to work for less, like an Internship, with the payoff being a job at the majors. There may be areas in the country where someone can live pretty well on what we make but there arent too many areas where one can live good on what Eagle pays. Well if the payoff of a job at the majors is pretty much what used to be considered Eagle type wages then whats the point? What I'm saying is that our wage has declined to the point where its less than what an Eagle wage was and your wage has declined to the point of a what someone with little to no skills with little to no responsiblity would expect to earn. I beleieve you guys earn less than a Fleet service clerk at SWA. You dont think thats a little out of whack?

Did you even read my post?

Nevermind.

 

[Duke787]

The answer to your simply question is if YOU listen and act as YOUR union says to act and that action destroys your craft and profession then THAT is union busting because it in effect weakens the unions postion to defend the membership.

GO AMP!

I don't understand how listening to our union is destroying our craft and profession. Wouldn't the A&P's at OH signing off the OSM's work be destroying our profession, or the AA instructors that go to out stations to show other mechanics or FSC's how to do work on the a/c hurting us more then me listening to our union. How about the mechanics at TUL who sharpen drill bits and an anti AMFA sign on his shop's wall (seen on the cnbc show a day in the life of AA) how is he helping our profession and is he an AMP guy or a TWU guy?

Let's talk about Flight Check, a contract maint company started by laid off UAL and DAL AMT's. They only pay there guys $30 an hour with no benefits, less then $30 with benefits. Eagle mechanics making less then $30 an hour, our own TWU negotiation team asking for less then the $40 an hour, are all these people destroying our class and craft?

I say we should make $43 an hour because That is what the market is calling for.

Just remember the 2001 contract that we all want back was negotiated by the TWU.

Would a Eagle mech please post and let us know if they were told they were in an apprenticeship program when they were hired at
Eagle.

 

[strikeforce]

I don't understand how listening to our union is destroying our craft and profession. Wouldn't the A&P's at OH signing off the OSM's work be destroying our profession, or the AA instructors that go to out stations to show other mechanics or FSC's how to do work on the a/c hurting us more then me listening to our union. How about the mechanics at TUL who sharpen drill bits and an anti AMFA sign on his shop's wall (seen on the cnbc show a day in the life of AA) how is he helping our profession and is he an AMP guy or a TWU guy?

Let's talk about Flight Check, a contract maint company started by laid off UAL and DAL AMT's. They only pay there guys $30 an hour with no benefits, less then $30 with benefits. Eagle mechanics making less then $30 an hour, our own TWU negotiation team asking for less then the $40 an hour, are all these people destroying our class and craft?

I say we should make $43 an hour because That is what the market is calling for.

Just remember the 2001 contract that we all want back was negotiated by the TWU.

Would a Eagle mech please post and let us know if they were told they were in an apprenticeship program when they were hired at
Eagle.

Duke
excellent points and arguements. we can #### and moan about what union busting is, but the union and WE, the membership, let non-licensed workers on the field. The bottom line is people don't want to hear the truth on this forum. The truth here is that most of our fellow mechanics are not real union guys that care about the craft and class. probably because they don't appreciate the value of being a skilled worker. some aren't skilled at all, and I probably wouldn't let them fix my bike let alone multi million dollar airplanes. some are not professional and when you're not professional you diminish the value of the profession. this also applies to union representatives, and how they conduct themselves to the company, as well as, conduct themselves in front of US. look at other professions on the field, especially the pilots. although some pilots may not know the airplanes, most if not ALL conduct themselves in a professional manner. if you want to get paid like professionals, ACT like professionals. WE have lost our sense of responsibility to the craft by acting like morons and clowns, not only in front of management, but around each other. this only leads to the root cause of our dilemma.....LEADERSHIP! other trade unions, and their members don't undercut each other by going out and working on the cheap. the LEADERSHIP won't allow it. the labor organizations like plumbers, electricians, and brick layers scope out cheap and non-union companies and picket their operations, and identify the SCABS. the LEADERSHIP protects the profession! Something we're desperately missing!
In my opinion a SCAB is not only a person that crosses the picket line, but one that undercuts the union and work on the CHEAP!

 

[Tex-Mech]

if you want to get paid like professionals, ACT like professionals. WE have lost our sense of responsibility to the craft by acting like morons and clowns, not only in front of management, but around each other. this only leads to the root cause of our dilemma.....LEADERSHIP! other trade unions, and their members don't undercut each other by going out and working on the cheap. the LEADERSHIP won't allow it. the labor organizations like plumbers, electricians, and brick layers scope out cheap and non-union companies and picket their operations, and identify the SCABS. the LEADERSHIP protects the profession! Something we're desperately missing!
In my opinion a SCAB is not only a person that crosses the picket line, but one that undercuts the union and work on the CHEAP!

I don't buy blaming the leadership for all of problems. Whats next blaming the leadership for the fact that all of us cant put a card drive over the top for the past 25 years. You made a great point about acting like a professional. I dont need a union leader to tell me to act like a professional. Anyone who has to be constantly reminded is not a professional in the first place and will never be one. I agree with you on scabs, but do you really need a leader to come and point out that the guy sitting in the same break room, who kisses managements arse everyday and cuts deals is undercutting the union. I just dont talk to those idiots. Lately I dont have a lot of people left to talk to. 😀

 

[Interested]

I generally make it a rule not to comment on these types of posts but here it goes.

Eagle doesn't have a pension so I contribute to the 401K. I am able to contribute 10%. I have a wife and kids, a mortgage, a car payment, utilities, etc, and live in a high cost of living "cornerstone" city. Oh yea, Eagle is my only job. I don't live on OT and my wife makes less than me. And I make about $12,000 less than your top out.

Don't get me wrong, I support you guys fully in getting your concessions back, and whatever else you can get. You guys really took it in the shorts. But all the "I need two jobs to survive" and "I can't afford a dollar to invest in a 401K" drama, in my view, really is nothing but a distraction and hurts your credibility. You should get your money back because you deserve it. But to play it like you guys are starving because you make $32/hour topout hurts you in the long run IMO. Remember guys like me can make it on less working right next to you and there are tens of thousands making it on far less all around you.

Long story short, nobody likes a whiner. If it comes to the point you want and need the support of anybody outside the American Airlines TWU organization it would probably serve you well to tone down that kind of rhetoric.

OK, commence the insults and bashing.

It sounds like you are smart enough to live within or below your means. Now what would happen if you lost 20% of your pay, and like in today's world everything (utilities, food, health insurance, etc...) else has gone up. Would you still be able to live like you are now?

 

[strikeforce]

I don't buy blaming the leadership for all of problems. Whats next blaming the leadership for the fact that all of us cant put a card drive over the top for the past 25 years. You made a great point about acting like a professional. I dont need a union leader to tell me to act like a professional. Anyone who has to be constantly reminded is not a professional in the first place and will never be one. I agree with you on scabs, but do you really need a leader to come and point out that the guy sitting in the same break room, who kisses managements arse everyday and cuts deals is undercutting the union. I just dont talk to those idiots. Lately I dont have a lot of people left to talk to. 😀

You're absolutely right....leaders aren't responsible in making sure people act professional, but I think it's prudent that each labor organization, and it's officers hold their members to the highest standards and EXPECTATIONS! Now, i'm not saying to embarrass the guy in front of management or his peers, but I don't think there's a problem bringing the person in and having a conversation to remind the guy what's expected of him, sort of what AA does when we screw up. If that doesn't work, then I believe there should be some punitive action taken against the member by the union. If it still continues...then we don't need that POS in our union. It's called Internal Controls. something our union lacks.
For example...when union guys go to the front office and nark on other members or go to HR about an issue that can be settled from within.....then the union has the right to take action against the member because he's undermining the integrity of the union. Don't you agree?

 

[DallasConehead]

Most guys are incapable of being professional in their jobs.

Just go out and look at any of the hangars at DFW, trash, tooling, cans of whatever, pretty much any bay one walks into looks like a pig sty. Instead of doing the job which to at least throw away your trash and keep a neat and orderly work area, turn in used parts, it’s get back to whatever it is that is more important, certainly not the job. Doing paperwork and E58’s, are you kidding me? Too lazy to get the long form and write the piss out of the plane. It’s their maintenance program; we’re just supposed to follow it. And knowledge, when something pops up as a problem with a plane, instead of digging into the manuals, just call a tech cc. A lot of people have no idea how to look up parts or find a reference for the work they’re attempting to do. Finding AMM references should be priority. How about training and CBT’s. Most guys won’t take the time to monitor their own training needs, they instead rely on someone to tell them, like little kids

Professionals? BS!!!

 

[strikeforce]

Most guys are incapable of being professional in their jobs.

Just go out and look at any of the hangars at DFW, trash, tooling, cans of whatever, pretty much any bay one walks into looks like a pig sty. Instead of doing the job which to at least throw away your trash and keep a neat and orderly work area, turn in used parts, it’s get back to whatever it is that is more important, certainly not the job. Doing paperwork and E58’s, are you kidding me? Too lazy to get the long form and write the piss out of the plane. It’s their maintenance program; we’re just supposed to follow it. And knowledge, when something pops up as a problem with a plane, instead of digging into the manuals, just call a tech cc. A lot of people have no idea how to look up parts or find a reference for the work they’re attempting to do. Finding AMM references should be priority. How about training and CBT’s. Most guys won’t take the time to monitor their own training needs, they instead rely on someone to tell them, like little kids

Professionals? BS!!!

then we shouldn't complain when AA sits back and waits, and plays US like grand pianos. I'm not defending management, but if you owned AA would you pay the idiots $30 or 40 or 50 per hour? People forget that AA is our customer, and the TWU is the contractor. at some point AA will look elsewhere to get the work done. Don't fool yourself if you think you're not replaceable just because you have 20, 30 or 40 years. so, let's continue being lazy, and dirty, and more lazy, and act like little kids. time will only tell.

 

[Rogallo]

Most guys are incapable of being professional in their jobs.

Just go out and look at any of the hangars at DFW, trash, tooling, cans of whatever, pretty much any bay one walks into looks like a pig sty. Instead of doing the job which to at least throw away your trash and keep a neat and orderly work area, turn in used parts, it’s get back to whatever it is that is more important, certainly not the job. Doing paperwork and E58’s, are you kidding me? Too lazy to get the long form and write the piss out of the plane. It’s their maintenance program; we’re just supposed to follow it. And knowledge, when something pops up as a problem with a plane, instead of digging into the manuals, just call a tech cc. A lot of people have no idea how to look up parts or find a reference for the work they’re attempting to do. Finding AMM references should be priority. How about training and CBT’s. Most guys won’t take the time to monitor their own training needs, they instead rely on someone to tell them, like little kids

Professionals? BS!!!

 

[Tex-Mech]

You're absolutely right....leaders aren't responsible in making sure people act professional, but I think it's prudent that each labor organization, and it's officers hold their members to the highest standards and EXPECTATIONS! Now, i'm not saying to embarrass the guy in front of management or his peers, but I don't think there's a problem bringing the person in and having a conversation to remind the guy what's expected of him, sort of what AA does when we screw up. If that doesn't work, then I believe there should be some punitive action taken against the member by the union. If it still continues...then we don't need that POS in our union. It's called Internal Controls. something our union lacks.
For example...when union guys go to the front office and nark on other members or go to HR about an issue that can be settled from within.....then the union has the right to take action against the member because he's undermining the integrity of the union. Don't you agree?

I do agree with what you say and what the conehead says. Same issue that conehead brings up is happening at my station and I dont see anything changing in the lack of professionalism with a change of union. Although Ive been wrong before.

But lets be real here for a second on internal action. Someone gets put in bad standing who probably never goes to union meetings or votes on a contract anyway. Its not like that person will lose there job. We used to have some guys here that used it as a badge of honor for being tossed from the union. Ive witnessed local union officers directing the guys on these issues and most of the guys turned there back on him or told him to get f@#$%^. The guy got elected again, so it wasnt an officer problem.

 

[eolesen]

It sounds like you are smart enough to live within or below your means. Now what would happen if you lost 20% of your pay, and like in today's world everything (utilities, food, health insurance, etc...) else has gone up. Would you still be able to live like you are now?

It's a valid question to ask, but to turn it around a bit, perhaps it wasn't so wise for the TWU to have asked for the moon in 2001.

Maybe if they'd have aimed a little lower, the company wouldn't have been looking for 20% cuts.

I know, some of you think they would have still gone as deep as they could, but the fact still holds that they didn't go after the Eagle guys, so it could have been a slightly different outcome in 2003...

 

[Hopeful]

It's a valid question to ask, but to turn it around a bit, perhaps it wasn't so wise for the TWU to have asked for the moon in 2001.

Maybe if they'd have aimed a little lower, the company wouldn't have been looking for 20% cuts.

I know, some of you think they would have still gone as deep as they could, but the fact still holds that they didn't go after the Eagle guys, so it could have been a slightly different outcome in 2003...

I disagree.
When current negotiations started 3 1/2 years ago, the TWU never asked for the moon. The company still lowballed us. Any good negotiation consists of give and take. But AA has taken so much away from what we had, they're like sharks reacting to blood. They want more!
I know you like to give the benefit of the doubt to the company, but the fact is they want more. Even though they offered a little "something" in the rejected TA, it was MORE concessions over all.

 

[strikeforce]

I do agree with what you say and what the conehead says. Same issue that conehead brings up is happening at my station and I dont see anything changing in the lack of professionalism with a change of union. Although Ive been wrong before.

But lets be real here for a second on internal action. Someone gets put in bad standing who probably never goes to union meetings or votes on a contract anyway. Its not like that person will lose there job. We used to have some guys here that used it as a badge of honor for being tossed from the union. Ive witnessed local union officers directing the guys on these issues and most of the guys turned there back on him or told him to get f@#$%^. The guy got elected again, so it wasnt an officer problem.

how about amending the local bylaws to include reprimands for members that are a detriment to the membership. if the guy is a real POS maybe he should be fired. putting a person in bad standing is meaningless.

 

[will fix for food]

It sounds like you are smart enough to live within or below your means. Now what would happen if you lost 20% of your pay, and like in today's world everything (utilities, food, health insurance, etc...) else has gone up. Would you still be able to live like you are now?

OK. One last time to try to explain my self.

Yes, a 20% cut would hurt. But the point of my original post was:

I think you should make $50/hour because you are professional aircraft mechanics responsible for the safety and well being of thousands of people including my wife and children when they fly. I think we should have the best and the brightest working on the planes. To attract that kind of talent takes money. Like it or not.

That argument just about anyone can agree with.

When you frame the argument in the terms that "I just can't live on $66500 a year" alot of people are going to look at you like you are an arrogant, greedy, a*****e, because 90% of the country, and probably 90% of professional AMTs in all parts of the industry do just that. Even in New York.

My original comment had nothing to do with whether you should be able to live with a 20% cut. It was about how you were framing the argument for restoring those cuts and how it was being perceived by people outside your little American Airlines mechanics world.

Bob, before you jump me on the numbers contained in this post I just picked them out of thin air. I bet they are generally accurate though.

If I didn't get my point across there I never will. So I am done and good luck with negotiations.