Article on AA profit sharing

[lpbrian]

And you conveniently overlook one of the reasons CO is more profitable... they're less prone to featherbedding and aren't nearly as hamstrung by scope clauses or restrictions against outsourcing.

All those pennies saved add up.

As I said, propose to work for CO's workrules.

Total hogwash. Continental is more profitable because it is better managed, has a better operation, has a better product, has had more revenue growth, better employee relations. The amount of outsourced maintenance has nothing to do with profitability.

Continental outsouces heavy maintenance because they don't have the facilities or fleet count to justify it. If there is a disadvantage to outsourcing, it can be offset by insourcing, as AA does. As for scope clauses, I've never seen a 70 or 100 seat A/C in Continental Express colors. I've never heard of a contract proposal that uses Continental as a benchmark.

Companies become sucessful because they offer a great product, not because of low costs.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

And you conveniently overlook one of the reasons CO is more profitable... they're less prone to featherbedding and aren't nearly as hamstrung by scope clauses or restrictions against outsourcing.

All those pennies saved add up.

As I said, propose to work for CO's workrules.

I have overlooked nothing

CO profit sharing is by far better than AA's
just look at the payouts and the percentages.


Enough all ready with the overhaul. AA does overhaul because it is by far cheaper to do it in house. Especially with AA's OSM program.
If overhaul was putting AA in the red it would have been gone long ago. Open your eyes fool !

If you honestly think AA is not making money doing heavy overhaul then you are truly blind.

h34r:

 

[The Goose]

I have overlooked nothing

CO profit sharing is by far better than AA's
just look at the payouts and the percentages.


Enough all ready with the overhaul. AA does overhaul because it is by far cheaper to do it in house. Especially with AA's OSM program.
If overhaul was putting AA in the red it would have been gone long ago. Open your eyes fool !

If you honestly think AA is not making money doing heavy overhaul then you are truly blind.

h34r:

Overlooked, not overlooked - it's really immaterial. Continental's management obviously understands what a damned-fool notion it is to try running a business while at war with all employee groups. Arpey's "win at all costs" and "rub their nose in it" strategy is not good for either the employees or company.

 

[FWAAA]

CO went to war with their employees a long, long time ago. The CO pilots make substantially less than comparable AA pilots, and it's been that way for a very long time. According to the mechanic website run by planedoctor, CO mechanics make less money than AA's mechanics. The FAs make less money than AA's FAs. I suspect the ramp and agents also make less money.

No big surprise that CO employees negotiated a more generous profit sharing plan - they have fully embraced the concept of variable compensation. When CO makes money, their profit sharing plan pays off in spades. If CO posts a loss, their employees make less money than AA's employees.

AA's represented employees, on the other hand, make higher guaranteed wages and their worthless unions negotiated a stingy profit sharing plan that probably will never payoff.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

CO went to war with their employees a long, long time ago. The CO pilots make substantially less than comparable AA pilots, and it's been that way for a very long time. According to the mechanic website run by planedoctor, CO mechanics make less money than AA's mechanics. The FAs make less money than AA's FAs. I suspect the ramp and agents also make less money.

No big surprise that CO employees negotiated a more generous profit sharing plan - they have fully embraced the concept of variable compensation. When CO makes money, their profit sharing plan pays off in spades. If CO posts a loss, their employees make less money than AA's employees.

AA's represented employees, on the other hand, make higher guaranteed wages and their worthless unions negotiated a stingy profit sharing plan that probably will never payoff.

Per the AA smoke and mirrors web site on negotiations AA and my self would have to disagree with your claim that CO makes less than us.

When in fact AA says we make less
And you know AA is all ways right even when they are wrong

http://aanegotiations.com/MechanicsWagesACMech.asp

 

[FWAAA]

Per the AA smoke and mirrors web site on negotiations AA and my self would have to disagree with your claim that CO makes less than us.

When in fact AA says we make less
And you know AA is all ways right even when they are wrong

http://aanegotiations.com/MechanicsWagesACMech.asp

Well, I'll be. Looks like planedoctor's site includes "Top out pay with min yrs of service plus 2 license, longevity and line premium if available," to arrive at an hourly pay of $31.33 at CO v. $32.25 at AA. Problem is, looks like his math is bad. If I add up the columns correctly - looks like AA's number is right.

My bad - looks like you and AA are right on this one. My apologies.

 

[eolesen]

Perhaps CO's employee relations are better because they don't have as many unions interfering in the process? Perhaps their relations are also better because the company can respond to changes without having to worry about as many restrictions in their contracts?

I'll agree that under Bethune and Kellner, they've done a spectacular job. And yes, the employees embraced the idea of variable compensation. Truth is they had little say in the matter, because it dates back to when most of the workgroups were non-union up until the 90's.

Teamsters didn't get to represent the mechanics until 1997, and it took until 1999 to work out a contract. Even the pilots weren't represented by a union between the 1985 (ALPA was decertified after the first bankruptcy and strike) and 1993, when the IACP was formed.

And when did CO go thru its "worst to first" transformation?

Not coincidentally, it was during the time they essentially had no unions except for the flight attendants (First UFA then IAM and eventually AFA) to get in their way...


Oh, and the claim that CO didn't have the facilities to perform its heavy maintenance?

Hogwash back at 'ya. They did have the facilities up until the mid 90's, which was -after- their second bankruptcy.

DEN and LAX were closed for overhaul after Bethune arrived. ELP was also an overhaul base up until the 80's (former TXI?). The only thing left today is narrowbody overhaul, which is in Houston (IAH, although I seem to recall there also being some overhaul done at either HOU or EFD).

And again, it was during that same timeframe CO transformed itself from being the butt of Bob Crandall's jokes and into a world class competitor.

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

Well, I'll be. Looks like planedoctor's site includes "Top out pay with min yrs of service plus 2 license, longevity and line premium if available," to arrive at an hourly pay of $31.33 at CO v. $32.25 at AA. Problem is, looks like his math is bad. If I add up the columns correctly - looks like AA's number is right.

My bad - looks like you and AA are right on this one. My apologies.

Considering this sites info on SWA is several years old, I don't how much credibility into it. It took me all of about 2 minutes to find the updated wages for them which are about $3 an higher than the "planedoctored" has posted:

http://www.amfa32.com/filedir/loa/Mechanic...ay%20Scales.doc

Add in that at UAL, they left off the skill premium that all mechnics get over above the license premium.

Employees who work in the Mechanic or related premium classifications,
the Computer Technician or Lead Computer Technician or in the
Metrologist classification will receive a high skill premium of $1.33 per
hour effective May 1, 2004 adjusted as follows:
1/1/08 1/1/09
$1.34 $1.36

 

[lpbrian]

Perhaps CO's employee relations are better because they don't have as many unions interfering in the process? Perhaps their relations are also better because the company can respond to changes without having to worry about as many restrictions in their contracts?

I'll agree that under Bethune and Kellner, they've done a spectacular job. And yes, the employees embraced the idea of variable compensation. Truth is they had little say in the matter, because it dates back to when most of the workgroups were non-union up until the 90's.

Teamsters didn't get to represent the mechanics until 1997, and it took until 1999 to work out a contract. Even the pilots weren't represented by a union between the 1985 (ALPA was decertified after the first bankruptcy and strike) and 1993, when the IACP was formed.

And when did CO go thru its "worst to first" transformation?

Not coincidentally, it was during the time they essentially had no unions except for the flight attendants (First UFA then IAM and eventually AFA) to get in their way...


Oh, and the claim that CO didn't have the facilities to perform its heavy maintenance?

Hogwash back at 'ya. They did have the facilities up until the mid 90's, which was -after- their second bankruptcy.

DEN and LAX were closed for overhaul after Bethune arrived. ELP was also an overhaul base up until the 80's (former TXI?). The only thing left today is narrowbody overhaul, which is in Houston (IAH, although I seem to recall there also being some overhaul done at either HOU or EFD).

And again, it was during that same timeframe CO transformed itself from being the butt of Bob Crandall's jokes and into a world class competitor.

Thier LAX base was not equipped to handle 777's without a major upgrade. With only 20 in fleet, it was not justified. And the state of California (unlike TX and OK) was not going to foot the bill. 777's don't pass through there anyway. LAX also happens to be in California, with it's enviromental laws and all.

 

[eolesen]

Hmmm... TUL and MCI are far older than CO's facility at LAX, which was where their DC10's were overhauled if I recall (it's been 20 years since I gave up my CO employee number...). They definitely had the space and the skillsets inhouse.

Maybe after concessions it's cheaper for AA to keep it inhouse, but I suspect the only reason it's still insourced is because of how much it would cost to lay off 12,000 employees under the current contract y'all despise so much. CO didn't have to worry about that, since their mechanics were all at-will at the time they decided to close down LAX and DEN.

 

[local 12 proud]

Maybe after concessions it's cheaper for AA to keep it inhouse.

'You don't impress me much'....

But thats about the smartest thing you've said as of late. If it could be done cheaper it would have been gone already!

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

but I suspect the only reason it's still insourced is because of how much it would cost to lay off 12,000 employees under the current contract y'all despise so much.

I am lost on this one

Just how much would it cost to lay off 12,000

And why 12K ??
The overhaul is only about 8K AMT's if that not 12K

But I fail to see your logic
:blink:

 

[lpbrian]

I am lost on this one

Just how much would it cost to lay off 12,000

And why 12K ??
The overhaul is only about 8K AMT's if that not 12K

But I fail to see your logic
:blink:

Less than that. There are about 10,000 title 1, I would guess about 7500 of those are O/H. About 2000(?) are OSM's, parts washers, etc. That would leave about 5500 O/H AMT's. Many people overlook the OSM/SRP factor when they praise the cost savings of overhaul.

 

[lpbrian]

Hmmm... TUL and MCI are far older than CO's facility at LAX, which was where their DC10's were overhauled if I recall (it's been 20 years since I gave up my CO employee number...). They definitely had the space and the skillsets inhouse.

Maybe after concessions it's cheaper for AA to keep it inhouse, but I suspect the only reason it's still insourced is because of how much it would cost to lay off 12,000 employees under the current contract y'all despise so much. CO didn't have to worry about that, since their mechanics were all at-will at the time they decided to close down LAX and DEN.

Uh, no. CAL opened it's LAX hangars and HQ in the early 60's, not long after LAX opened. MCIE opened when MCI did, in 1972. TUL's widebody hangars opened in the 70's and 80's. It's irrelevant. Enviromental restrictions have all but eliminated LAX for overhaul (SFO too, why do you think UA is trying to sell the place?)

 

[eolesen]

Less than that. There are about 10,000 title 1, I would guess about 7500 of those are O/H. About 2000(?) are OSM's, parts washers, etc. That would leave about 5500 O/H AMT's. Many people overlook the OSM/SRP factor when they praise the cost savings of overhaul.

Doesn't matter if they're AMT or OSM/SRP. They still get the $12.5K and severence.

7500 x $12.5K = $93M, and that just covers the job security provision.

Salary for OH probably runs $8M per week, so add in whatever you think severence would be...

Round up for the 150-200 management/support staff who are also thrown over the side, and it's pretty close to $150M in shutdown expense just for labor. And that doesn't even start to touch environmental remediation....

I agree about the environmental issues in Kalifornia, but then why didn't UAL close SFO and keep IND when they had the opportunity?