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AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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lynyrdskynyrd said:

"Philosophical whitewash. I don't know Graceson from Adam, he may be sincere, just another joe swept up in the events of the last few years. But looking at the lowest common denominator, which one still has to do with usapa(they haven't even made amends for trying to trash real people's lives), all I can come up with is philosophical whitewash. Who knows, it might work. A lot of historical misdeeds have been overlooked and rationalized away. Kind of like the Indians.

"Until some things are made right, I can't accept what Graceson us trying to do. No matter how well meaning he may be."





I joined AWA in the late '80s. I've seen how the bankruptcy process has changed my airline…and my life. My colleagues and I are no strangers to sacrifice. You guys out east think you're unique and alone in this regard?

Neither you or I have influence over the economy, the industry. You, out east, are equally vulnerable to the market forces as we are. Ideally, AWA would have grown, with employees sharing in a pre and post-retirement economic security. Ideally U would have sustained a quality of life for your pre and post-retirement economic security. Neither you are I are responsible for the economic and industry forces that changed our lives. These external forces became the great equalizer. For different reasons, both of us are where we are – equally devastated.

I'm building a home, you're living in your home. A plane was hijacked and guided into both our properties. Now we look across the street at each other. There's an understanding. We'll both must begin by laying the first brick. No one has the advantage. An unfortunate sequence of events has become the great equalizer.

So to summarize… Through fate, fortune, or misfortune, we've joined with you to rebuild. But now, you demand the tangibles you no longer have, reaped from the very real tangibles we've worked, sacrificed, and earned.

But the frosting on this cake is that we agreed, in good faith, to abide by an arbitrator's neutral and binding decision. Regardless of the means and methods, regardless of extenuating circumstances, we would have honored that agreement in good faith. But they did not, and will not…

Now, LCC has accepted our seniority list, delivered by ALPA. USAPA has delivered its own version of a seniority list, which is not the accepted list. Parker pleads that he is compelled by existing conventions to negotiate only with the current CBA. He holds the accepted seniority list in one hand while looking at USAPA's list laying on the table. He confesses he cannot prudently move his corporation into the gunsights of one side or the other. Because the SLI is key in the valuations of any agreement, he cannot reasonably negotiate any section of the contract which might be affected in any degree.

Parker prudently hits the pause button until Silver responds to his request for Declatory Judgment. But now events have changed. A merger is within his reach. He's sending mixed signals. He's mumbling something about McCaskill-Bond, something about a three-way. He's unsure.

To protect our rights and interests, we need to critically discern every conceivable scenario. We need to define the probability of the most likely scenario first.

With the gaining momentum of a merger, what is the most likely opening shot? What is the most likely event?
If their is no merger, then it is most probable the NIC will be used if a contract is ever reached. Can it be legally used if there is a merger? Some say yes, some say no. Why would the west care. If they are sure the NIC was done properly and just, then there is no reason not to expect the same outcome in a 3 way, that is unless they feel they got away with some type of large windfall!
 
If their is no merger, then it is most probable the NIC will be used if a contract is ever reached. Can it be legally used if there is a merger? Some say yes, some say no. Why would the west care. If they are sure the NIC was done properly and just, then there is no reason not to expect the same outcome in a 3 way, that is unless they feel they got away with some type of large windfall!

There will be no three-way boo.

Make peace with that now.

The Nic will be used with or without a merger.
 
Thanks, Cactusboy.

The first evennt is Silver's ruling. What is our calculated guess of the decisive language and scopeof of that decision. We can't afford to react, we must anticipate.

I have offered my opinion on a probable Silver ruling before...

I would say the most likely outcome is she simply mirrors the 9ths ruling. usapa is the CBA, the company negotiates with usapa, usapa must negotiate for ALL LCC pilots.

Bottom line is still the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC. The Nic is the result of a binding arbitration within the membership that usapa represents. usapa has not come up with any system that would not harm the West to favor the east and likely cannot or will not.

Further, usapa has been parked by the NMB for not negotiating in good faith. So, the company's fear of self help as described in the DJ is currently non-existent, and likely will remain that way until usapa either forwards the Nic as the seniority proposal, or until Silver rules in a way that gives usapa and more importantly LCC cover from an impending hybrid DFR suit.
 
If their is no merger, then it is most probable the NIC will be used if a contract is ever reached. Can it be legally used if there is a merger? Some say yes, some say no. Why would the west care. If they are sure the NIC was done properly and just, then there is no reason not to expect the same outcome in a 3 way, that is unless they feel they got away with some type of large windfall!
The list itself is secondary to me. The way the east went about redressing what it felt was wrong isn't the way it's done. To leave the Nic behind and start from scratch sends our children the wrong message. It won't be one of standing up for what one thinks is right(perhaps loosely so I suppose), but rather how to be less than straight up and get by with it. Im not the best at translating my thoughts into words, especially on an iPhone, so I'll just leave it at that.
 
If their is no merger, then it is most probable the NIC will be used if a contract is ever reached. Can it be legally used if there is a merger? Some say yes, some say no. Why would the west care. If they are sure the NIC was done properly and just, then there is no reason not to expect the same outcome in a 3 way, that is unless they feel they got away with some type of large windfall!

Not only can the Nic be used...it will be used if there is a merger.

I cannot speak for all West pilots, but I do not fear a 3 way in the least. Counsel has already been retained to represent the West in the event of a merger and the ensuing SLI.

Whether usapa goes into a merger SLI with the Nic or not....(and BTW they have no other list to come in with, although they could come in with the seperate ops lists, but that would trigger the DFR right then and there and stop the proceedings), the West will be there to offer the Nic.

What the east needs to understand is you hold absolutely zero trump cards...but the West,,,,we got the mother of all trump cards, and we will play it the instant any scheme to undermine our rightful seniority is laid.

As far as expecting the same outcome in a 3 way....you got that right...not a single West pilot will lose relative position to east pilots on a combined LCC/AMR list, no matter how usapa approaches the integration.
 
I have offered my opinion on a probable Silver ruling before...

I would say the most likely outcome is she simply mirrors the 9ths ruling. usapa is the CBA, the company negotiates with usapa, usapa must negotiate for ALL LCC pilots.

Nic,

I believe a whole bunch of Easties agree with above.
Rest of post seems quite a stretch IMO.
I believe your " accepted list " argument has less of a chance prevailing than you obviously do. We shall see.

FA
 
Nic,

I believe a whole bunch of Easties agree with above.
Rest of post seems quite a stretch IMO.
I believe your " accepted list " argument has less of a chance prevailing than you obviously do. We shall see.

FA

The fundamental issue is not that the company accepted the list...that is what they had to do to be in compliance with the TA.

The fundamental issue is the Nic is the result of binding arbitration among the membership usapa has a DFR to represent.

A union's wide range of reasonableness does not include harming one class to enhance the position of others, simply to appease the will of the majority.

But, as you say, we shall see.

One thing I would like to say right now is...if by some crazy stretch usapa is allowed harm its membership...after five years of having to put up with a usapa's BS...don't get too pissed when the West employs a tactic that again shuts down contract negotiations and keeps you from getting improvements.
 
Why would we be upset NIC, Parker has been doing it since DAY 1, now when AA emerges as a standalone and aquires EAST assets and sells the "WEST",to GOD knows who, what list get used then?, my bet is the contract it is attatched to, the same reason PARKER cancelled his MOU, you were attached, now your not. "IT IS A RISK THING"! Good post FATHER ABE!
 
A union's wide range of reasonableness does not include harming one class to enhance the position of others, simply to appease the will of the majority.

But, as you say, we shall see.

One thing I would like to say right now is...if by some crazy stretch usapa is allowed harm its membership...after five years of having to put up with a usapa's BS...don't get too pissed when the West employs a tactic that again shuts down contract negotiations and keeps you from getting improvements.

1-Agree, however it does not afford the minority rights to harm majority either. Many here obviously think the Nic is harmful

2-So if East ultimately prevails (according to west opinion) on Nic issue, are you stating that revenge will be seeked by yourself?

FA
 
1-Agree, however it does not afford the minority rights to harm majority either. Many here obviously think the Nic is harmful

2-So if East ultimately prevails (according to west opinion) on Nic issue, are you stating that revenge will be seeked by yourself?

FA

Revenge??? No...just the same tactic the east employed for the last five years...... Delay.

Nobody cares what many's opinion is of an arbitration result...and how does the minority harm the majority by insisting on the results of said arbitration that the majority insisted on also?
 
Why would we be upset NIC, Parker has been doing it since DAY 1, now when AA emerges as a standalone and aquires EAST assets and sells the "WEST",to GOD knows who, what list get used then?, my bet is the contract it is attatched to, the same reason PARKER cancelled his MOU, you were attached, now your not. "IT IS A RISK THING"! Good post FATHER ABE!

You are making a huge simpleton assumption that AMR would want the east as a whole, and not have interest in aircraft fleets.

Oh, and BTW...if AMR aquires LCC to get at east assets....looky here...I have a seniority number at LCC, but might very well chose to go in a direction other than below the TWA folks at AMR, which it seems is were you would end up in your scenario.

MB covers mergers, not fragmentations, asset purchases etc..
 
In all this minutia , there has been no mention of our 3% compounded raises. I guess they are just waiting for the merger so it will just go away. If the merger does not go through than we are just another year or 2 behind in contract negotiations and any arbitrated decisions ....great.

Another round anyone
 
Revenge??? No...just the same tactic the east employed for the last five years...... Delay.

Nobody cares what many's opinion is of an arbitration result...and how does the minority harm the majority by insisting on the results of said arbitration that the majority insisted on also?

Nic,
1- East & West has taken many steps ( resultant delay consequences ) in this arb award fight. Tis why I asked IF in west opinion the outcome was concluded. For example a Cba was ratified w/o a Nic sli. If so.......what would " delay " achieve?

2- not sure who your " nobody " refers as I only speak for myself. Past rank/file votes seem to indicate that your " nobody " is in the minority. Usually the " tail doesn't wag the dog ".

3-your debate style often uses a fact ( ie...we both agreed on arb ) to tie together or validate an opinion of yours. May work for some in a repetitive vain.......not for me!

FA
 
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