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AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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This is another way to put it but probably accuarate. What do think Pi.

I think I asked you. Are you claxon? Also, I asked for a vision IF WE DIDN'T HAVE A MOU. I wasn't scared, but if that is your vision of not having a MOU, it's kind of scary.

My real guess is the Crimi is too busy at the meeting to call you back with "your" answer.
 
Wrong.....the history shows we take the first crap deal that comes along and end up with table scraps. If Driver is accurate......this is another first crap deal. To throw 10k at each guy is a monumental slap in the face for the sacrifices we made. If he's even remotely accurate, I know how I'm going to vote ........if I even get to. I agree with Phoenix........there's more on the table and we deserve to see it.
The "sacrifices" you've allegedly made for the last 7 YEARS has been entirely self inflicted. You aren't entitled to a single penny of compensation for that. If my YES vote helps deny you of that, cry me a river.
 
I think I asked you. Are you claxon? Also, I asked for a vision IF WE DIDN'T HAVE A MOU. I wasn't scared, but if that is your vision of not having a MOU, it's kind of scary.

My real guess is the Crimi is too busy at the meeting to call you back with "your" answer.
No I'm not Claxon, I wish i had his wit he's funny and spot on. I'm all for protections in this MOU but it sucks and we deserve way more, bottom line your weak and you will take anything you can get Do you get the code share? synergies right off the bat should be pairity right off the bat according to the analysts. Claxon works for NWA. PS Don't know Crimi.
 
Great letter from one of our pilots who understands. Permission to publish granted. I am going fishing.
8/ 22/12 The morning after thoughts. It was obvious to me after attending the BPR meeting yesterday that we did not require the assistance of a legal team or professional negotiator to draft this very poor tentative agreement MOU. We are giving them immediate {upon aa/lcc deal} code sharing, COC surrender because AA on paper will most likely be the successor, and min fleet for banking reasons that sounds like BS, all replaced with convoluted time leveling and other tricky items along with term sheet APA bankruptcy pay rate for 3 years, then parity with Delta.{we got them down from 6 years, it should be immediate.} I must point out that I left the meeting after lunch and did not hear more BS as I had already spent two vacation days at meetings which I feel were more important to me and my colleagues than my plans of saltwater fishing. This is a NO vote if it gets to me, for now everyone needs to write and call reps and urge them we can do much better and no rush, we have what they want. It was a good example of typical Tempe, nothing has changed as my President assures me.,
We are still being hammered by an opportunist management who will not recognize our value and contributions that made this deal a possibility. Attorney Wilder our prof. negotiator said to me personally yesterday that Parker is not a good businessman, he is basically using slave labor and calling himself a success. He said he wished he he could do the same with his law firm, but if he did not pay his people well and kept more money for himself, he would be out of business do to the inferior help. The hammer and shotgun techniques have a time limit by natural design. I think we are collectively allowing our company to make fools of us, as this tentative agreement shows. Good luck to us all.




8/21/12 Shortly after the meeting thoughts. The reason for min fleet size protection give away...Kirby says banks we borrow from do not like min fleet size, Dean could not figure out why that would be. I suggested they hire some corporate bankers for an opinion on that. Sounds like BS, Paul D'iorio was incredible explaining the tricks in most of the the language. No wonder Kirby wanted him gone.. I suggest that if anyone wants to understand the truth on this to contact him. He knew the subject better than anyone who spoke. This is a crap deal, with $10,000 which they said would be closer to 9,000. Nice payback for $10 billion in contributions. Professional negotiator Wilder seemed coached to sell the deal...take these protections, you will need them , AA is bigger than you and not historically nice to merged pilots. He also was pushing the time issue. Hurry and sign this, time is right now for a deal.. I spoke to him and he was not aware of our history, of LOA 93 my $100 grand a year pay cut. He said look what happened to the EAL pilots. I said I do not see the comparison. This guy may have a good resume, but I do not trust him. I told him to his face that there is no shortage of attorneys that tell their clients to take this deal and hurry. I asked him what we are paying him per hour as you know my salary, He would not answer. I am praying the bpr stops playing politics and does not bring this to the pilots for a vote. Code share, COC and min fleet size are huge and they want us to give it all up. We can do better. Gary seems to be in a hurry, must have a schedule to meet for Tempe.
 
It's not my place to convince you of anything. As I don't know how I will vote, that would be hard to do anyway. I just don't get the arguing for a NO when you haven't seen the whole thing.

In business the answer is always no unless you convince me otherwise, and even when I think my answer will be yes, my answer is still... Let's all say it together 🙂, "If you need an answer now the answer is no. If you can wait 24 hours I'll consider your request and get back to you with my decision."

That approach to business has served me well for decades and weeded out the mistakes when you rush into "good deals" that are packaged with the fine print that taketh away.
 
Wrong....MB, with the only list the company has accepted.
Yep. If Doug wants to get a TRO slapped against this transaction and the accompanying multi year delay, go ahead. Hand over a DOH list. It won't go anywhere. My gut however, tells me Parker is done waiting and he has far too much to lose this time. He can't just stick to his ridiculous M.O. Of pretending ignorance. This is now finally HIS problem to. He will take the path of least resistance.
 
No I'm not Claxon, I wish i had his wit he's funny and spot on. I'm all for protections in this MOU but it sucks and we deserve way more, bottom line your weak and you will take anything you can get Do you get the code share? synergies right off the bat should be pairity right off the bat according to the analysts. Claxon works for NWA. PS Don't know Crimi.

It's you're, not your. I'm weak, you're stupid. Looks like a stand off.

You never answered my question, just more and more "We deserve! We deserve!" You're damn right we deserve it, but can we get it? Nothing you and your buddies have done in the last 4 years have helped get anything.

The AA pilot already gave in on parity with DL without us. How do we get that back? What does turning down this MOU do for us? How much power do we really have? Did the company come to us for this or did we go to them, because they have not seemed too worried about ANY provision in our contract stopping them. These are all questions I have. I just got the MOU and have done a quick once over. I'm not sure I get the min block hour thing and am not happy with the loss of min fleet.
 
Ball is in his court if he doesn't want to see it derail like the New Delta. We see how that went.

This train is not going to leave the station with legal challenges which are going to mount with the recent addition to our defense through AWAPPA.

We'll attack this from mutiple fronts if necessary.
 
Great letter from one of our pilots who understands. Permission to publish granted. I am going fishing.
8/ 22/12 The morning after thoughts. It was obvious to me after attending the BPR meeting yesterday that we did not require the assistance of a legal team or professional negotiator to draft this very poor tentative agreement MOU. We are giving them immediate {upon aa/lcc deal} code sharing, COC surrender because AA on paper will most likely be the successor, and min fleet for banking reasons that sounds like BS, all replaced with convoluted time leveling and other tricky items along with term sheet APA bankruptcy pay rate for 3 years, then parity with Delta.{we got them down from 6 years, it should be immediate.} I must point out that I left the meeting after lunch and did not hear more BS as I had already spent two vacation days at meetings which I feel were more important to me and my colleagues than my plans of saltwater fishing. This is a NO vote if it gets to me, for now everyone needs to write and call reps and urge them we can do much better and no rush, we have what they want. It was a good example of typical Tempe, nothing has changed as my President assures me.,
We are still being hammered by an opportunist management who will not recognize our value and contributions that made this deal a possibility. Attorney Wilder our prof. negotiator said to me personally yesterday that Parker is not a good businessman, he is basically using slave labor and calling himself a success. He said he wished he he could do the same with his law firm, but if he did not pay his people well and kept more money for himself, he would be out of business do to the inferior help. The hammer and shotgun techniques have a time limit by natural design. I think we are collectively allowing our company to make fools of us, as this tentative agreement shows. Good luck to us all.




8/21/12 Shortly after the meeting thoughts. The reason for min fleet size protection give away...Kirby says banks we borrow from do not like min fleet size, Dean could not figure out why that would be. I suggested they hire some corporate bankers for an opinion on that. Sounds like BS, Paul D'iorio was incredible explaining the tricks in most of the the language. No wonder Kirby wanted him gone.. I suggest that if anyone wants to understand the truth on this to contact him. He knew the subject better than anyone who spoke. This is a crap deal, with $10,000 which they said would be closer to 9,000. Nice payback for $10 billion in contributions. Professional negotiator Wilder seemed coached to sell the deal...take these protections, you will need them , AA is bigger than you and not historically nice to merged pilots. He also was pushing the time issue. Hurry and sign this, time is right now for a deal.. I spoke to him and he was not aware of our history, of LOA 93 my $100 grand a year pay cut. He said look what happened to the EAL pilots. I said I do not see the comparison. This guy may have a good resume, but I do not trust him. I told him to his face that there is no shortage of attorneys that tell their clients to take this deal and hurry. I asked him what we are paying him per hour as you know my salary, He would not answer. I am praying the bpr stops playing politics and does not bring this to the pilots for a vote. Code share, COC and min fleet size are huge and they want us to give it all up. We can do better. Gary seems to be in a hurry, must have a schedule to meet for Tempe.
In this economy, it's the best deal we are going to get. I'm voting yes, and will encourage my colleagues to do the same. 10 grand is A LOT of money!
 
Your crap company, USAir, killed Piedmont and PSA and almost killed the jobs of 30,000 people.

USAir killing PSA was the best thing that ever happened for Southwest.

Don't let historical facts influence your opinion

Historical facts are ignored by the likes of Luv...but I am going to throw some more out there for the boards consumption.

Prior to the AWA aquisition of Airways....the deal was presented to the West as "we are buying them"...Parker said the exact same thing in the CLT crew news last month when COC was discussed.."we are buying them".

The famous quote from Freund of "all the risk lies with the West" was in the context of the same discussion we are having now. Does the West sign on to the TA or not. If the West did not, the east had nothing to lose because they were toast without the merger and the West would simply be left unprotected because the deal would move forward regardless.
 
East has about 2800 active pilots and quick look at west looks like around 1200 active. Guessing the 10k is only for active pilots. those out on medical or mil leave etc are not in the number. Guess the 10k figure could have been a rounded number that the note taker took. 40 mill/ 5000 is 8k per. But it could also take in account the expected time it is to take effect. 12 months from now? 18? 24? With retirements starting in 3.5 months that may have something to do with it. Of course since the "no furlough clause" is only active at the time of implementation it is possible there are other plans creeping around in the companies head to be done before they have to deal with "no furloughs"

The question remains what else is "in the agreement" that affects people without stating that it affects people. This managment does not have a good track record in that department. They have numerous examples of say one thing and do another. (furloughs of 09 etc) Any vote I make will be weighed with that in mind. Basically at this point I automatically expect that they are lying to me and the burden is on them to convince me otherwise.

That all makes sense.
 
It's you're, not your. I'm weak, you're stupid. Looks like a stand off.

You never answered my question, just more and more "We deserve! We deserve!" You're damn right we deserve it, but can we get it? Nothing you and your buddies have done in the last 4 years have helped get anything.

The AA pilot already gave in on parity with DL without us. How do we get that back? What does turning down this MOU do for us? How much power do we really have? Did the company come to us for this or did we go to them, because they have not seemed too worried about ANY provision in our contract stopping them. These are all questions I have. I just got the MOU and have done a quick once over. I'm not sure I get the min block hour thing and am not happy with the loss of min fleet.
Can we get a better yes, but not with this group I'm sorry to say. looking forward to helping those AMR pilots, Did you get the BS reason on min fleet, new one to me. Please get a hold of DiOrio he can really make you understand better than I. I'm all for cooperating for a fair deal this it not.
 
I have just under 1000 hours sick bank. Most who have not burned it are in the same situation. That is roughly 1.5 years worth of salary if you throw in vacation and annual sick leave. What is the company offering us in return? There's not even an early out option which lets us cash in that sick bank.

I need to think about the CoC. If it is a poison pill which was never meant to be actually implemented, the company is obviously eager to get rid of it, which means it represents leverage for the pilot group. What is the company offering in return?

We are not the one's in bankruptcy this time. We should be getting everything the AA pilots are getting without giving up a single provision in our own contract - unless the company pays for it.

The pay rates that go into effect on day 1 should be a given. What are we getting in return for the additional concessions - on top of LOA93 - that the company is asking for?

The MOU should be an enticement, not another game of peanut butter jars.

Bottom line is who really needs the MOU, the pilots or the company? If it is rejected and the merger proceeds with us nowhere at the table, but in the waiting room, are we better or worse. Last time we rejected the advice of attorneys, accountants and consultants - we ended up with LOA93.

On the fence

84,

Agree with all your post sans fence sitting. Would be good to hear why these above issues seemed appropriate first hand from negotiators pov. I believe your bottom line Question falls squarely on company. Their trying to get something for nothing and I really hope this rank / files calls their bluff

FA
 
In this economy, it's the best deal we are going to get. I'm voting yes, and will encourage my colleagues to do the same. 10 grand is A LOT of money!
For you I can understand at dirtbag Franke Air, you never made any good money.
 
The "sacrifices" you've allegedly made for the last 7 YEARS has been entirely self inflicted. You aren't entitled to a single penny of compensation for that. If my YES vote helps deny you of that, cry me a river.


Wtf are you talking about. This was before you were on the property and quite possibly before you stepped into an airplane. Come back when you make some sense
 
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