AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Well 9 are you sitting down?

After reading the MOU document and carefully considering the information. Ready?

I agree with you.

This MOU is a piece of crap. A bad deal for all of us. The language is weak. There are holes the company can drive through. If Parker wants this deal he is going to have to bring a much bigger check book and a lot better protections.

Kill it at the BPR or send it out. I am a no vote on this. We do not need to get caught up in a BK cram down half assed contract.

Somebody grab the defib !

 

[A320 Driver]

Kill it at the BPR

That is exactly the scenario our lawyers and negotiator told us to avoid. If the BPR turns it down we are dead ducks. Parker will toss us to the side and move on and we have no say whatsoever. If the pilot group turns it down, then he is dealing with the whole group, not a few malcontents that have been a thorn in his side for seven years.

Driver...

 

[mrbreeze]

That is exactly the scenario our lawyers and negotiator told us to avoid. If the BPR turns it down we are dead ducks. Parker will toss us to the side and move on and we have no say whatsoever. If the pilot group turns it down, then he is dealing with the whole group, not a few malcontents that have been a thorn in his side for seven years.

Driver...

I agree, Driver...it's time to move on and not roll the dice on this one.

breeze

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

That is exactly the scenario our lawyers and negotiator told us to avoid. If the BPR turns it down we are dead ducks. Parker will toss us to the side and move on and we have no say whatsoever. If the pilot group turns it down, then he is dealing with the whole group, not a few malcontents that have been a thorn in his side for seven years.

Driver...

I hate to bring it up, but when DUI DOUG negotiated a deal behind our backs as the AA pilots did, they both tossed us , this MOU should be avoided at all costs, what's the rush, Our COC and scope is a goldmine for DUI make him, work for it! MM!

 

[Piedmont1984]

It is well within the realm of possibility that AA, with its considerable cash, could tender an offer for LCC - while still in bankruptcy.

Horton could leave with a golden parachute, or Parker, or Parker and Horton could share responsibilities for a time. They have worked together in the past.

One of them at some point in time will depart the scene with a very attractive severence package. Giving up CoC would help fund such a package.

When I think about giving up CoC - I really DO start trembling.

 

[Phoenix]

Well 9 are you sitting down?

After reading the MOU document and carefully considering the information. Ready?

I agree with you.

This MOU is a piece of crap. A bad deal for all of us. The language is weak. There are holes the company can drive through. If Parker wants this deal he is going to have to bring a much bigger check book and a lot better protections.

Kill it at the BPR or send it out. I am a no vote on this. We do not need to get caught up in a BK cram down half assed contract.

Oh, You read the part where the seniority list is delayed another two years.

 

[Phoenix]

Double post

 

[john john]

Well 9 are you sitting down?

After reading the MOU document and carefully considering the information. Ready?

I agree with you.

This MOU is a piece of crap. A bad deal for all of us. The language is weak. There are holes the company can drive through. If Parker wants this deal he is going to have to bring a much bigger check book and a lot better protections.

Kill it at the BPR or send it out. I am a no vote on this. We do not need to get caught up in a BK cram down half assed contract.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

One of the better eastie HP'er posts in a long while.

[/background]

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

It is well within the realm of possibility that AA, with its considerable cash, could tender an offer for LCC - while still in bankruptcy.

Horton could leave with a golden parachute, or Parker, or Parker and Horton could share responsibilities for a time. They have worked together in the past.

One of them at some point in time will depart the scene with a very attractive severence package. Giving up CoC would help fund such a package.

When I think about giving up CoC - I really DO start trembling.

Or working together as we speak! MM! Remember DUI publically kissed TEMPE good bye already!

 

[Hate2fly]

Where are the Compass Corruption boys for some guidance? This is great fun to watch. The Compass boys put the leadership of this union in place and they bring us an agreement that guts Scope, LPP's, min fleet and block hours and the crown jewel Change of Control. Nice going Compass Corruption! How about those grievance settlements! Okay boys we are counting on you! What a joke.

Hate

 

[USA320Pilot]

Dear USAPA Officers & BPR Member,

Today you are going to make a decision that will have far reaching effects on our pilot group. A decision I believe every USAPA deserves the right to make not just 11 people. Please take a moment to read my email and think about my questions. Some of the BPR MOU objections I've heard are: Scope Protection, LPP's, Change of Control, Code Share.

SCOPE: How exactly do we lose scope protection? By improving scope with pay protection that we don't have now? By improving scope with a no furlough clause that we don't have now? By maintaining our current minimum blocks hours, which requires the company to provide us as today? By keeping our current Hawaii flying?

Therefore, can you tell me how you believe we lose Scope in the MOU?

LPPs: LPP Section 3 and 13 provide for the fair and equitable seniority integration and a specific time table for final and binding arbitration. However, unlike previous mergers, a merger with American would be governed by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment. In 2007, U.S. Senators Claire McCaskill and Kit Bond secured a provision to the Senate’s omnibus spending bill that guarantees airline employees not already covered by some other arrangement (such as the Air Line Pilots Association Merger Policy) a process for ntegrating seniority. McCaskill-Bond incorporates sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions which require "integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner" either through the agreement of the parties or, absent agreement, through binding impartial arbitration.

Therefore, why is losing LPPs a big deal by ratifying the MOU?

3. CoC: The CoC clause only applies if US Airways is acquired. It is only lost if the merger proceeds and the MOU and Term Sheet become a JCBA working for the world's largest airline with a path to the top pay and benefits in the industry. How is that bad? It's my understanding "One problem with the COC is you can't really tell for sure how the deal affects those provision until after is is completed. Then a look back analysis can be performed to determine the true effect."

Therefore, with the MOU in place that gives us huge economic increases, that every USAPA financial and legal advisor is emphatically recommending you accept, that will only be lost if we merge, why is it a bad deal to become the highest paid pilots on the planet with the best Vacation, Retirement, and Health & Welfare available?

CODE SHARING: Why is it bad to replace United domestic code sharing with American code sharing while working for the same company? Don't we want to expand and grow our airline to be the same as UAL and DAL or remain within our current structure?

Therefore, with scope protections like pay protection, a no furlough clause, and our current minimum block hours staying in place, and replacing code sharing partners how is this bad? In fact, without the merger and replacing code sharing I believe we will never be paid like the DAL/UAL pilots.

In conclusion, every time our union leadership did not inform us of important decisions, listen to the advice of our union's legal and financial advisors, or let the members vote the union leadership has badly hurt the pilot group. Twice we were not told we were offered to freeze our DB Plan, LOA 93 had over 50 "roll call" votes that caused us to be the first pilot group to give management a concession greater than the "ask", and we ended up with the Nicolau Award II.

I believe every USAPA member has a right to have their voice heard with their vote...not just 11 men.

Therefore, I encourage you to let us vote.

 

[USA320Pilot]

How does the MOU cause the pilots obtrain an agreement that "guts Scope, LPP's, min fleet and block hours and the crown jewel Change of Control.?"

Could somebody give me a line by line explanation of the gutting or loss to the pilot group for each point above?

 

[Hate2fly]

Chip you better call your Compass Boys they can take you to the promise land. This is great.
Hate

 

[Phoenix]

Why do people want to argue over the degree of concessions. We are not in bankruptcy and have been on bankruptcy wages for YEARS and I am not interested in more concession.

 

[A320 Driver]

Dear USAPA Officers & BPR Member,

Today you are going to make a decision that will have far reaching effects on our pilot group. A decision I believe every USAPA deserves the right to make not just 11 people. Please take a moment to read my email and think about my questions. Some of the BPR MOU objections I've heard are: Scope Protection, LPP's, Change of Control, Code Share.

SCOPE: How exactly do we lose scope protection? By improving scope with pay protection that we don't have now? By improving scope with a no furlough clause that we don't have now? By maintaining our current minimum blocks hours, which requires the company to provide us as today? By keeping our current Hawaii flying?

Therefore, can you tell me how you believe we lose Scope in the MOU?

LPPs: LPP Section 3 and 13 provide for the fair and equitable seniority integration and a specific time table for final and binding arbitration. However, unlike previous mergers, a merger with American would be governed by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment. In 2007, U.S. Senators Claire McCaskill and Kit Bond secured a provision to the Senate’s omnibus spending bill that guarantees airline employees not already covered by some other arrangement (such as the Air Line Pilots Association Merger Policy) a process for ntegrating seniority. McCaskill-Bond incorporates sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions which require "integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner" either through the agreement of the parties or, absent agreement, through binding impartial arbitration.

Therefore, why is losing LPPs a big deal by ratifying the MOU?

3. CoC: The CoC clause only applies if US Airways is acquired. It is only lost if the merger proceeds and the MOU and Term Sheet become a JCBA working for the world's largest airline with a path to the top pay and benefits in the industry. How is that bad? It's my understanding "One problem with the COC is you can't really tell for sure how the deal affects those provision until after is is completed. Then a look back analysis can be performed to determine the true effect."

Therefore, with the MOU in place that gives us huge economic increases, that every USAPA financial and legal advisor is emphatically recommending you accept, that will only be lost if we merge, why is it a bad deal to become the highest paid pilots on the planet with the best Vacation, Retirement, and Health & Welfare available?

CODE SHARING: Why is it bad to replace United domestic code sharing with American code sharing while working for the same company? Don't we want to expand and grow our airline to be the same as UAL and DAL or remain within our current structure?

Therefore, with scope protections like pay protection, a no furlough clause, and our current minimum block hours staying in place, and replacing code sharing partners how is this bad? In fact, without the merger and replacing code sharing I believe we will never be paid like the DAL/UAL pilots.

In conclusion, every time our union leadership did not inform us of important decisions, listen to the advice of our union's legal and financial advisors, or let the members vote the union leadership has badly hurt the pilot group. Twice we were not told we were offered to freeze our DB Plan, LOA 93 had over 50 "roll call" votes that caused us to be the first pilot group to give management a concession greater than the "ask", and we ended up with the Nicolau Award II.

I believe every USAPA member has a right to have their voice heard with their vote...not just 11 men.

Therefore, I encourage you to let us vote.

I have to agree. Anger is playing absolutley too big a part in decision making. We are gaining more than we are losing in my opinion. That is also the opinion of our negotiator Rowland Wilder, both of our lawyers and the NAC. If anyone wants to vote NO, then do so. But don't take that right away by letting the BPR stop it from coming to a full vote by the pilot group.
It's been pretty amazing to watch the last few days. One example given yesterday was an A320 F/O that is going backwards in the base. He could be bumped down to the E-190. Under the MOU he is pay protected until he can hold the A320 again somewhere on the system which is more than we have now...which is NOTHING. No pay protection, no furlough protection, nada. The MOU puts those mechanisms in place. Is it perfect? Nothing ever is, but it is more than we have now. Another thing I want to re-emphasize. We are parked by the NMB. We tried to get "unparked" and we were completely rebuffed and told we were lucky to have a job. They have washed their hands of us. The company is under NO compunction to negotiate with us. We are at the table as long as APA wishes it and no longer. The MOU mandates our being there with an equal footing. That has GOT to be worth something. According to our advisors, it also gives us a better position going into arbitration for seniority integration.

OK, I'm all talked out. Do what you will.

One pilot, one vote unless the BPR pulls that right from your hands...again.

Driver...