AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

How does the MOU cause the pilots obtrain an agreement that "guts Scope, LPP's, min fleet and block hours and the crown jewel Change of Control.?"

Could somebody give me a line by line explanation of the gutting or loss to the pilot group for each point above?

USA320

Parity with APA in terms of pay should be a given from the start. Don't characterize what is in the APA term sheet as something the company is offering us in exhange for this MOU. Shame on the company if they hold us hostage on LOA93/C2004 even after becoming part of AA and APA.

Without arguing the merits of your post above, the MOU waives a number of provisions in our contract. What is the company offering in return? I think it reasonable for us to ask for more than $10,000, which is south of $7,000 after taxes, which didn't add up in my mind in the first place (40 mil divided by # of pilots).

 

[Piedmont1984]

I have to agree. Anger is playing absolutley too big a part in decision making. We are gaining more than we are losing in my opinion. That is also the opinion of our negotiator Rowland Wilder, both of our lawyers and the NAC. If anyone wants to vote NO, then do so. But don't take that right away by letting the BPR stop it from coming to a full vote by the pilot group.
It's been pretty amazing to watch the last few days. One example given yesterday was an A320 F/O that is going backwards in the base. He could be bumped down to the E-190. Under the MOU he is pay protected until he can hold the A320 again somewhere on the system which is more than we have now...which is NOTHING. No pay protection, no furlough protection, nada. The MOU puts those mechanisms in place. Is it perfect? Nothing ever is, but it is more than we have now. Another thing I want to re-emphasize. We are parked by the NMB. We tried to get "unparked" and we were completely rebuffed and told we were lucky to have a job. They have washed their hands of us. The company is under NO compunction to negotiate with us. We are at the table as long as APA wishes it and no longer. The MOU mandates our being there with an equal footing. That has GOT to be worth something. According to our advisors, it also gives us a better position going into arbitration for seniority integration.

OK, I'm all talked out. Do what you will.

One pilot, one vote unless the BPR pulls that right from your hands...again.

Driver...

Driver

I have been arguing for membership vote on the MOU. I hope we get to vote.

Assuming that we do, now is the time to debate the merits of this document. We are waiving large portions of our contract language, what is the company offering in return. APA Term Sheet should be a given, separate from the discussion on the MOU.

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver

I have been arguing for membership vote on the MOU. I hope we get to vote.

Assuming that we do, now is the time to debate the merits of this document. We are waiving large portions of our contract language, what is the company offering in return. APA Term Sheet should be a given, separate from the discussion on the MOU.

It should but it isn't and the company is under NO compunction to move us from LOA93 until a joint contract is negotiated. The AA pilots get the term sheet at the POR, we don't...period. The MOU gives us that along with furlough protection and protections against the company from shrinking us without shrinking AA by at least a factor of 2. It also protects us from the company making us an E190 regional. They can only put 30 of them on our system (counting the 15 we have now) before they have to start splitting them between us and AA.

Driver...

 

[A320 Driver]

I think it reasonable for us to ask for more than $10,000, which is south of $7,000 after taxes, which didn't add up in my mind in the first place (40 mil divided by # of pilots).

That $40 million is a settlement for the $120 million the company will have to spend to service the AA frozen pilot pension over the next 6 years ($20 mil/yr). The NAC went in wanting an equilvalent amount. It was a non starter with the company. Ultimately the NAC negotiated for 1/3 of the amount and it took the form of a signing bonus (up front money).

There is a LOT more to all of this than can be gleaned from reading it. We need the NAC to go on road shows to explain it.

Driver...

 

[cleardirect]

Correction.....the East pilots have given up over 100s of thousands of dollars to stand up for what they believe is right.

Your self serving BS is just too weak!

breeze

Do not #### to me about what the east has given up. It was your choice to fight final and binding arbitration. It was your choice to go back on your word. What is that you told us all? Your seniority is not for sale. Fine. But do not complain about the cost. You made that choice.

So now you realize that after 5 years you will be right where you would have been 5 years ago just thounds of dollars poorer. That was your choice not mine. Blame yourself and your east buddies for the price.

When we finally after 4 years of usapa tough talk get this piss poor MOU, now you are upset because I am going to vote no. What is the problem? Not what you though mighty usapa was going to be able to get out of the company! No retro pay for the east? No WB lockout for the west?

BTW. Are you voting for this cram down give back MOU?

 

[Piedmont1984]

It should but it isn't and the company is under NO compunction to move us from LOA93 until a joint contract is negotiated. The AA pilots get the term sheet at the POR, we don't...period. The MOU gives us that along with furlough protection and protections against the company from shrinking us without shrinking AA by at least a factor of 2. It also protects us from the company making us an E190 regional. They can only put 30 of them on our system (counting the 15 we have now) before they have to start splitting them between us and AA.

Driver...

If you go back and read the statements from Kirby and Parker touting the benefits of this merger, again and again they say that the pilots at USAirways will get significant pay raises if the merger happens. At no time did they mention this would be contingent on an MOU with multiple contractual concessions.

Once again, management did not ask for an MOU, USAPA did. If no MOU existed in the first place I must assume we would have been folded into the APA Term Sheet at the time of merger or POR.

I agree, we need more information. The metaphor with the parking brake by Phoenix was a good one.

 

[Crzipilot]

Where as the MOU stands as a Transition agreement between the US and AA, also have to look at the AA term sheet, and their '08 contract to see what's in there, and how that is modified to see what the end CBA is going to look like, on such things as scope, and other compensation, etc etc..... So our current contracts are a holding point, with the MOU supposed to protect us from becoming the feeder for AA with a bunch of 190's.

So with the block look back (didn't we win a grievance on this, where we prevailed, and the company arguement/interpretation is essentially what is now in the MOU, effectively giving up the defense of that scope) the company can essentially lower block hours 20% a year, over year, knocking us down 40% in 2 years, and only having to knock down AA 20% in same time frame?

How many airplanes did DAL/NWA park after their merger, and getting their synergies? And rumors are they are about 3% overstaffed now, but figure that will fix itself with retirements starting. So essentially MGMT could keep the whole airline flat lined for a the forseeable future. Didn't kirby say domestic was going to be flat going forward? How flat / reduction do you think is going to happen with the combination, by the guys that love to remove seats to drive up demand?

 

[luvthe9]

That is exactly the scenario our lawyers and negotiator told us to avoid. If the BPR turns it down we are dead ducks. Parker will toss us to the side and move on and we have no say whatsoever. If the pilot group turns it down, then he is dealing with the whole group, not a few malcontents that have been a thorn in his side for seven years.

Driver...

I'm starting to like those compass correction boys even they say this is a bad deal, I'm upset about to amount of money the attoneys are getting to tell us to "hurry up and vote". Any deal can be modified. We we find out soon I bet it's going to get shot down. One senoir Capt. was whining I just want the money and don't care about furloughs, nice my kind of guy..

 

[Res Judicata]

I agree, Driver...it's time to move on and not roll the dice on this one.

breeze

What!? A clear understanding of the situation by an Eastie?! WTF is going on?!

 

[A320 Driver]

If you go back and read the statements from Kirby and Parker touting the benefits of this merger, again and again they say that the pilots at USAirways will get significant pay raises if the merger happens. At no time did they mention this would be contingent on an MOU with multiple contractual concessions.

You're right, they didn't. The term sheet formed the basis for a JCBA that would be negotiated after the POR.

Once again, management did not ask for an MOU, USAPA did. If no MOU existed in the first place I must assume we would have been folded into the APA Term Sheet at the time of merger or POR.

That would be a bad assumption. The company is under no compunction to give us the term sheet at the POR. They have to give us the JCBA but that has to be negotiated and finalized.


Driver...

 

[Res Judicata]

Why do people want to argue over the degree of concessions. We are not in bankruptcy and have been on bankruptcy wages for YEARS and I am not interested in more concession.

You voted for USAPA, therefore you're not just "interested" in long term concessions, you flat out DEMANDED them. Why the tears? Not working out like you were promised? LOL!

 

[A320 Driver]

I'm starting to like those compass correction boys even they say this is a bad deal, I'm upset about to amount of money the attoneys are getting to tell us to "hurry up and vote". Any deal can be modified. We we find out soon I bet it's going to get shot down. One senoir Capt. was whining I just want the money and don't care about furloughs, nice my kind of guy..

What furloughs would that be? Under the terms of the MOU they are pay protected even if they sit home as long as they don't pass on a recall.

You say you were there. If you were, you heard the same things I did. If so, why would you take such an asinine statement seriously?

Driver...

 

[Piedmont1984]

I think Hummel should approach Horton directly, discuss this and that, over coffee - just to explore some options which would be in the interest of the LCC pilots and gain leverage vis a vis Tempe.

Kinda like the APA did.

 

[Graceson]

Dear USAPA Officers & BPR Member,

Today you are going to make a decision that will have far reaching effects on our pilot group. A decision I believe every USAPA deserves the right to make not just 11 people. Please take a moment to read my email and think about my questions. Some of the BPR MOU objections I've heard are: Scope Protection, LPP's, Change of Control, Code Share.

SCOPE: How exactly do we lose scope protection? By improving scope with pay protection that we don't have now? By improving scope with a no furlough clause that we don't have now? By maintaining our current minimum blocks hours, which requires the company to provide us as today? By keeping our current Hawaii flying?

Therefore, can you tell me how you believe we lose Scope in the MOU?[/s heard with their vote...not just 11 men.

Therefore, I encourage you to let us vote.[/font]

Then why does parker want SCOPE. For coc, he could simply bargain with us for IT.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think Hummel should approach Horton directly, discuss this and that, over coffee - just to explore some options which would be in the interest of the LCC pilots and gain leverage vis a vis Tempe.

Kinda like the APA did.

Except that the APA and other unions didn't approach Parker - Parker courted them and ignored USAPA and the other US unions. Note that Horton also hasn't approached any of the US unions. It's bad enough to fantisize that you can control world events but worse to not realize that the rest of the world is ignoring you.

I'd be willing to bet that Parker cares little how you vote on the MOU - he's going to keep pursuing the merger with or without you.

Jim