AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

[quote name='EastUS1' timestamp='1346653460' post='934050]
This multi year mess is a result of two diverse groups completely failing to initially compromise at ANY level, subsequently then deeply entrenching themselves into polarized opposition, and being entirely unwilling or unable to ever effect even the slightest, mutually acceptable compromise. Plenty of blame reasonably attends all concerned here. All can equally feel free to, if felt needed, proportionally assign it as their beliefs dictate. While just one person; my own intransigence is easilly and honestly noted, and my responsibility for it fully accepted without apology. The feud is what it is. Making not the slightest excuse (nor feeling any need to) for my personal position; it must be reasonably noted that two determined sides are always required for any prolonged struggles. The Hatfields would have been nothing in history without the McCoys....
[/quote]
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. What you have just done is indicted the entire arbitration process. Once both sides failed to reach a negotiated agreement, they willingly gave up any claim to the outcome. They agreed to be bound by the decision. Neither side was given veto power over the arbitrator's decision. They merely had the ability to vote down a contract that included the decision, and that was the fatal flaw. The arbitrator should have been able to craft a temporary joint agreement and implement it as part of his decision and then allowed the joint group to begin negotiating for a full on contract.

To minimize the tyranny that the east has held over the west with "it is what it is" and phony comparisons to a simple feud is to rewrite a history everyone here knows to well to let you get away with. The blame for this civil was has been and will remain solely the property of the east pilots and their failure to carry out what they agreed to. The west has played defensive ball on this from day one. You can try to wash your stains out with your verbose vomit, but you cannot honestly refute the facts.

"It is what it is?" Go clean up after your donkey.

 

[nevergiveup]

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. What you have just done is indicted the entire arbitration process. Once both sides failed to reach a negotiated agreement, they willingly gave up any claim to the outcome. They agreed to be bound by the decision. Neither side was given veto power over the arbitrator's decision. They merely had the ability to vote down a contract that included the decision, and that was the fatal flaw. The arbitrator should have been able to craft a temporary joint agreement and implement it as part of his decision and then allowed the joint group to begin negotiating for a full on contract.

To minimize the tyranny that the east has held over the west with "it is what it is" and phony comparisons to a simple feud is to rewrite a history everyone here knows to well to let you get away with. The blame for this civil was has been and will remain solely the property of the east pilots and their failure to carry out what they agreed to. The west has played defensive ball on this from day one. You can try to wash your stains out with your verbose vomit, but you cannot honestly refute the facts.

"It is what it is?" Go clean up after your donkey.

Unfortunately, one side thought the outcome was so bad, that it prevented the entire group from getting a contract. Checks and balances prevent the list from being used. A marrige never conummated. Multiple oppportunities were offered to make it work, but no solution could be agreed upon. It is time to move forward with a contract that will benefit all. A permanent fence for the west if that is what they want.

 

[luvn737s]

Unfortunately, one side thought the outcome was so bad, that it prevented the entire group from getting a contract.

That is not the perogative of "one side". They gave up the right to prevent anything when they willingly entered into arbitration. Why is something so basic, so often weaseled around?

Checks and balances? No, the assumption that one side would live up to their agreement. Let's at least be honest about that.

Why should Parker enter into any negotiations with USAPA? Time and again, they prove themselves to be men untrustworthy of their word.

Does this really represent the character of the east, and if not, why are you allowing them to do so?

 

[Graceson]

"The blame for this civil was has been and will remain solely the property of the east pilots and their failure to carry out what they agreed to. The west has played defensive ball on this from day one."

"Unfortunately, one side thought the outcome was so bad, that it prevented the entire group from getting a contract. Checks and balances prevent the list from being used. A marrige never conummated."

Curious... By deed, both sides have resorted to litigation to resolve these differences. Though costly and time consuming, this was essentially the compelling venue of choice, if not the only venue at that time, to obtain remedy. Do you both agree?

 

[EastCheats]

That is not the perogative of "one side". They gave up the right to prevent anything when they willingly entered into arbitration. Why is something so basic, so often weaseled around?

Checks and balances? No, the assumption that one side would live up to their agreement. Let's at least be honest about that.

Why should Parker enter into any negotiations with USAPA? Time and again, they prove themselves to be men untrustworthy of their word.

Does this really represent the character of the east, and if not, why are you allowing them to do so?

I don't think they ever intended to abide by the results of the arbitration if the outcome was not what they told the arbitrator they were expecting. The clues were all there, the way Prater allowed himself the be pushed in a corner, ingnoring the arbitrator's advice to be a little more reasonable and then trying to push our reps in the Wye River.They always had a plan B and that was to use the majority to get the results they were entitled.

The minority did not cave to pressure and intimidation as the majority calculated. Fabricated RICO and identity theft charges were the hammer used by their union. A faux union conceived in the back of a van. A union which is soon to be buried by APA along with an airline with a legacy I would assume to forget.

The arbitration was fair, DOH was not. There were two different companies formed at different times. There is a reason runners are staggered on an oval track. Not to give the inside runner an advantage. The arbitrator recongnized this reality and the other facts which included West hiriing and East furloughs, not to mention the acquiring party headed by Doug Parker. I find it facinating age and experience are important with piloting an aircraft but is ignored with arbitration.

I think of the recent scandal at Penn St, the crimes and cover-ups associated with the athletic program. It goes to the top, the late Joe Paterno. They knew of the activity being commited by Sandusky. Everybody kept quiet because they were concened with their own rear-ends rather than doing the right thing. Now, the university has to pay the price. It's too bad that the fans and local businesses suffer as a result. If you are going to reap the benefits of win at all costs, then you must be prepared to suffer the embarrassement of a losing program starting with a loss to Ohio.

West Point's Cadet Honor Code reads simply that....
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

There is a lot we can learn from a cadet.

 

[luvthe9]

[background=transparent]The pilot that sent this just thinking out loud about what ifs. Food for thought[/background]

[background=transparent]Musings from Munich:[/background]

[background=transparent]In discussing many of the union issues with other pilots, there are several theories being offered that might shed some light into the current situation. Here goes:[/background]

[background=transparent]The company knows that they are about to get hammered in the PIC findings and resultant court decisions. It’s already been proven that Bryan falsified the form 5500 filings dealing with our pension. The company intentionally defrauded the pilots in order to steal our pension, an apparent common and accepted corporate strategy these days. Shockingly, the PIC is finding complicity on the part of the PBGC. This strategy was at the direction of the Seabury Group in order to put the AW-US merger together. They have promised Hummel and a couple of other pilots soft landings in exchange for them making the pension “problem” go away. That’s why Streble said that there was no money left in the fund to support further committee investigation. The only other explanation here is that Streble is in way over his head and is totally incompetent. (How do you not know where hundreds of thousands of dollars are?!) [/background]
[background=transparent]Kirby is controlling Hummel. Hence, the firings of Paul DiOrio and a host of others that would interfere with the master plan: becoming “bitches” for an AA merger. Kirby wanted the MOU to go out for a vote to get feelers on how many yes votes such a low ball offer would garner. This information could be used in order to find the lowest common denominator needed to put an “improved” offer over the top. They know we have many scared, weak-dick, or otherwise dumb ass pilots who will be happy to help the cause. (Thanks, Munn) [/background]
[background=transparent]Will an AA merger ever go through? Who knows. But, now we have convenient distractions (like the non-disclosure agreement) which not only keeps us from negotiating our long overdue contract but diverts attention away from the PBGC hearings which will be taking place soon. If you don’t believe for one moment that Parker, Kirby, and the rest are part of white collar organized crime, you’re an idiot. There is no room for a (self-titled) “peacemaker” in dealing with these crooks.[/background]
[background=transparent]Am I bitter, insulted, disgusted, and outraged about what our profession has devolved into? Hell yes, and you should be too! Folks, either grow a pair and get involved to further your careers here or, please, find some other place to work. We’re going to be on the receiving end of a smack down worse than LOA 93. How many more times is the pilot group going to vote to screw themselves? Take some time to write your reps and officers. If they’re acting on behalf of their own best self-interests and not ours as a whole, we should consider some new faces.[/background]

 

[Phoenix]

I don't think they ever intended to abide by the results of the arbitration if the outcome was not what they told the arbitrator they were expecting. The clues were all there, the way Prater allowed himself the be pushed in a corner, ingnoring the arbitrator's advice to be a little more reasonable and then trying to push our reps in the Wye River.They always had a plan B and that was to use the majority to get the results they were entitled.

The minority did not cave to pressure and intimidation as the majority calculated. Fabricated RICO and identity theft charges were the hammer used by their union. A faux union conceived in the back of a van. A union which is soon to be buried by APA along with an airline with a legacy I would assume to forget.

The arbitration was fair, DOH was not. There were two different companies formed at different times. There is a reason runners are staggered on an oval track. Not to give the inside runner an advantage. The arbitrator recongnized this reality and the other facts which included West hiriing and East furloughs, not to mention the acquiring party headed by Doug Parker. I find it facinating age and experience are important with piloting an aircraft but is ignored with arbitration.

I think of the recent scandal at Penn St, the crimes and cover-ups associated with the athletic program. It goes to the top, the late Joe Paterno. They knew of the activity being commited by Sandusky. Everybody kept quiet because they were concened with their own rear-ends rather than doing the right thing. Now, the university has to pay the price. It's too bad that the fans and local businesses suffer as a result. If you are going to reap the benefits of win at all costs, then you must be prepared to suffer the embarrassement of a losing program starting with a loss to Ohio.

West Point's Cadet Honor Code reads simply that....
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

There is a lot we can learn from a cadet.

You are acting disgracefully. The court system heard your complaint all the way to the SCOTUS and not one of your complaints was upheld, yet you have the temerity to cast around slanderous accusations as if you were superior to the court system and the administration of the law. Not only do you slander the defendants, you slander the entire court system. Grow the eF up.

 

[fifidriver]

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. What you have just done is indicted the entire arbitration process. Once both sides failed to reach a negotiated agreement, they willingly gave up any claim to the outcome. They agreed to be bound by the decision. Neither side was given veto power over the arbitrator's decision. They merely had the ability to vote down a contract that included the decision, and that was the fatal flaw. The arbitrator should have been able to craft a temporary joint agreement and implement it as part of his decision and then allowed the joint group to begin negotiating for a full on contract.

To minimize the tyranny that the east has held over the west with "it is what it is" and phony comparisons to a simple feud is to rewrite a history everyone here knows to well to let you get away with. The blame for this civil was has been and will remain solely the property of the east pilots and their failure to carry out what they agreed to. The west has played defensive ball on this from day one. You can try to wash your stains out with your verbose vomit, but you cannot honestly refute the facts.

"It is what it is?" Go clean up after your donkey.

I concur.

 

[EastUS1]

"This multi year mess is a result of two diverse groups completely failing to initially compromise at ANY level, subsequently then deeply entrenching themselves into polarized opposition, and being entirely unwilling or unable to ever effect even the slightest, mutually acceptable compromise. Plenty of blame reasonably attends all concerned here. All can equally feel free to, if felt needed, proportionally assign it as their beliefs dictate.................The Hatfields would have been nothing in history without the McCoys...."

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE.What you have just done is indicted the entire arbitration process.........................The blame for this civil was has been and will remain solely the property of the east pilots and their failure to carry out what they agreed to.

I rest my case 😉

 

[EastUS1]

West Point's Cadet Honor Code reads simply that....
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

There is a lot we can learn from a cadet.

Did you graduate from the Point EC? Just curious. I've (long ago now) 😉 met a couple of guys that had done so, but elected to go USAF rather than Army. Fast, shiny jet syndrome hit them.

While mentioning things military; if anyone wants some fast fun....just imagine having some arbitrator re-order the pecking order at any Academy and placing plebes into the upper class, based on the fact that when they were accepted, they held the status of seniors at their high school. 😉

 

[luvn737s]

Did you graduate from the Point EC? Just curious. I've (long ago now) 😉 met a couple of guys that had done so, but elected to go USAF rather than Army. Fast, shiny jet syndrome hit them.

While mentioning things military; if anyone wants some fast fun....just imagine having some arbitrator re-order the pecking order at any Academy and placing plebes into the upper class, based on the fact that when they were accepted, they held the status of seniors at their high school. 😉

Are you sniffing glue?

 

[EastUS1]

nevergiveup, on 03 September 2012 - 07:29 AM, said: Unfortunately, one side thought the outcome was so bad, that it prevented the entire group from getting a contract.

That is not the perogative of "one side".

For good or bad; the history of the past five years and counting indicates otherwise.

 

[EastUS1]

Are you sniffing glue?

Please expand on which part of my post prompted that question? This could be fun. 😉

Perhaps it was the following that properly seemed ludicrous? : "While mentioning things military; if anyone wants some fast fun....just imagine having some arbitrator re-order the pecking order at any Academy and placing plebes into the upper class, based on the fact that when they were accepted, they held the status of seniors at their high school."

According to the noble principles of arbitration based on relative seniority though....Where could any logical problem be found with that? 😉

 

[luvn737s]

You are acting disgracefully. The court system heard your complaint all the way to the SCOTUS and not one of your complaints was upheld, yet you have the temerity to cast around slanderous accusations as if you were superior to the court system and the administration of the law. Not only do you slander the defendants, you slander the entire court system. Grow the eF up.

You do know that only Judge Wake (you know the one you dismiss as the Desert Judge) bothered to listen to the case and saw USAPA's attempt to circumvent the arbitration as "100% win for the east and 100% loss for the west". Subsequent courts only ruled on whether the potential for a DFR in such a scheme (absent USAPA actually pulling the trigger by implementing DOH) was something into which the court should intervene.

Try honesty on for size. I know it doesn't suit you, but it doesn't fall apart everytime you put it on.

 

[luvn737s]

"This multi year mess is a result of two diverse groups completely failing to initially compromise at ANY level, subsequently then deeply entrenching themselves into polarized opposition, and being entirely unwilling or unable to ever effect even the slightest, mutually acceptable compromise. Plenty of blame reasonably attends all concerned here. All can equally feel free to, if felt needed, proportionally assign it as their beliefs dictate.................The Hatfields would have been nothing in history without the McCoys...."

and then....

[quote/]For good or bad; the history of the past five years and counting indicate otherwise.
[/quote]

Yeah, there's your "it is what it is".