Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WorldTraveler]

Yeah, not quite. I'm looking at offer letters *I've* received. Travel is quite clearly not listed as either compensation or as a benefit.

Profit sharing? 401K match? Yep. That's compensation. It has a cost to the company, and you can sue over it when it's not received.

If you want to consider anything you get as an employee as compensation, then go for it, but employee travel programs are considered privileges, not compensation. That wording is quite deliberate.

Compensation is something you receive in exchange for your labor, and you can file a lawsuit when you don't receive it. Benefits are something you receive in exchange for your labor, and there's a quantifiable cost to the company to provide it.

Privileges typically cost nothing to the company to provide, and they can be revoked without recourse.

Travel is no more considered compensation than the ability to telecommute, receive professional training, expect toilet paper in the restroom, get a 10-20% discount on retail travel, eat free donuts at meeting or in the breakroom on holidays, or receive discounts from other companies.

None of those things are guaranteed. They're intangibles. They have no value to the employee unless they choose to use them, and there's no real cost to the company to offer it.

Sure, it's part of the overall employment package, but it's not compensation, and it's not a benefit.

As a banker, I'd think the fine print would be meaningful enough for you to notice the differences.

you're working overtime tap dancing but the IRS and the airlines that provide it consider non-rev travel benefits as compensation.

The airlines have succeeded at telling unions that pass benefits are off limits for negotiations but they could just as easily said the same thing about health insurance or other benefits which they are legally required to provide and which is completely up to the company to administer the programs.

and travel benefits very much cost the company and the employee something.

the bottom line is that the unions have no influence on many things that they want employees to think they influence - and if they have no influence regarding pass benefits which as you note are low cost even if they aren't free, then why should the company not throw the unions a bone for pass benefits over other things - but they don't.

 

[700UW]

Then why at PMUS did we fly for free for the 20 years I was there and I didnt pay one red cent of taxes on my flights, nor did it add to my W2 totals?

 

[WorldTraveler]

you absolutely paid taxes or US absorbed them on int'l flights because US had to pay them.

Non-rev passengers are not exempt from int'l taxes. Domestic flights are not taxed for non-revs if there is no fee.

It costs airlines a lot of money to keep up with all of this for each employee.

and as I have noted before, the IRS does not tax airline STANDBY pass benefits. but that is also why airlines are very careful to make sure the benefits are not abused.

 

[700UW]

The spin has begun!

Paying a US departure tax on an international flight is not an income tax collected nor any kind of tax to the IRS.

I flew for free for over 20 years in the business and never had one cent that I had to pay as income tax on non-revenue travel.

Apples to apples, not oranges.

Nor did I pay taxes on all my positive travel either for the company or the union.

 

[Kev3188]

E's explanation of the difference between what constitutes compensation, and what are considered privileges/perks/niceties is dead on. Imputed income charges (or not) don't change that.
 
Relevant to this thread, I've yet to see pass travel even enter the representation discussion at DL. It's a non-issue for both sides.

 

[topDawg]

arguing that unions just decided to impose different boarding priorities for frontline vs. mgmt. and the unions had no say so is simply wrong.

if a union couldn't stand up against mgmt. getting higher priority passes on CO and NW and others, then it is beyond logical to think they could effect any other part of the compensation package.

if pass benefits are part of the airline compensation package - and they are - then if the union is powerless to influence mgmt.'s decision as to how they are used in any form, then unions have no influence in any other area - all of which cost more to administer and provide than pass benefits.

This might be one of, if not the stupidest things you have ever said. AGAIN no airline in the US has NRSA travel as part of its CBAs. It is impossible to negotiate on something not part of the CBA and not something the company or union see as a benefit.
 
having said that, it is clear you are just trying to show your bias again and feel the need to talk out of butt to do so. You are very high if you think that because a union can't negotiate on something they have no control over, but fail to look at the gains and losses of unions and companies over things that is in a CBA, and judge failure and success off of it. 
 
Talk about scope gains/losses. Retirement gains/losses. Pay gains/losses. Insurance gains/losses etc. etc. etc. which are all things the union has a say over. Your not building any credibility saying stupid stuff like the above.  
 

Yes. Your employer considers pass travel part of your compensation.

So DL gives a far better pass program than other carriers and they do it because they want to alone?

And other airlines do provide pass benefits as compensation.

DL does know what its employees want and deliver. No company or union can satisfy 100% of the world.

Delta does NOT consider pass travel as compensation. It is pass PRIVILEGES.  There is a reason why Delta calls them as such.
 

wrong, as usual.

passes are a benefit that comes from airline employment. The IRS does not allow any airline to give pass benefits to non-employees.

the IRS says they must be for personal travel and on a standby basis or be subject to tax, but they are absolutely compensation by anyone that knows anything about the subject.

 
No you are wrong. Delta gives pass benefits to plenty of non-Delta and non-Delta Air Lines INC employees. DGS and the DCI carriers all have pass privileges 

you absolutely paid taxes or US absorbed them on int'l flights because US had to pay them.

Non-rev passengers are not exempt from int'l taxes. Domestic flights are not taxed for non-revs if there is no fee.

It costs airlines a lot of money to keep up with all of this for each employee.

and as I have noted before, the IRS does not tax airline STANDBY pass benefits. but that is also why airlines are very careful to make sure the benefits are not abused.

 
Domestic flight are not taxed because they are not income. International flight taxes are not income taxes (like they would be if they were a true part of compensation.) 
 
The company makes sure pass privileges are not abused because they don't want people flying around for free or a reduced cost. It has nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with bottom line costs. Every ass in the seat cost money. Fuel, Food, Employee cost etc. etc. When you sell a buddy pass or you companion pass you'r allowing people to fly Delta (or any OAL) at a very small cost while it is a large cost to Delta.  

E's explanation of the difference between what constitutes compensation, and what are considered privileges/perks/niceties is dead on. Imputed income charges (or not) don't change that.
 
Relevant to this thread, I've yet to pass travel even enter the representation discussion at DL. It's a non-issue for both sides.

Its a non-issue because its not something the unions are going to try to control and the company let them control. Fighting over pass privileges are a complete waste of time. I would be highly pissed if a union focused on something so trivial when things like scope, health care cost and retirement need fixing.   

 

[WorldTraveler]

Relevant to this thread, I've yet to see pass travel even enter the representation discussion at DL. It's a non-issue for both sides.

since DL has the most generous pass benefit program on the planet, messing with anything will only result in it getting worse... but that is the way a lot of DL people believe will happen with other things in the compensation package, even if they aren't quite as chart-topping.

and perhaps you'd also like to list as things that are NOT compensation but rather benefits which means DL can take them away at any time and they aren't subject to negotiation?

where you park and how you get to the terminal.

the 30 minute early "out"....

the reason why airlines call it a privilege and a benefit is because it CANNOT be given a value or it is subject to taxation.

they will tell you until the cows come home that airline employee travel is a no cost item because if they say otherwise, the IRS will come after it.

They also will tell you that the pass benefits which airline employees receive is part of the industry to industry comparisons that they use.

They absolutely consider pass benefits as valuable when calculating the value of compensation packages for their employees but won't say so externally or even in writing.

even for a supposed mgmt. shill, I can see thru that one.

 

[Kev3188]

and perhaps you'd also like to list as things that are NOT compensation but rather benefits which means DL can take them away at any time and they aren't subject to negotiation?

where you park and how you get to the terminal.

the 30 minute early "out"....

Everything here can be changed at any time, for any reason. Nevertheless, specific to your points:

I never get an early out. If the company wants to change that, cool.


I walk to/from my car, which is parked in an area designated by the airport. It's quite a ways from the terminal. If DL wants to change that, I'm all for it.


None of that changes pass travel as E describes it, and none of it changes the fact that it's a non issue.

 

[Kev3188]

 Delta does NOT consider pass travel as compensation. It is pass PRIVILEGES.  There is a reason why Delta calls them as such.

+1
  

No you are wrong. Delta gives pass benefits to plenty of non-Delta and non-Delta Air Lines INC employees. DGS and the DCI carriers all have pass privileges 

+2

 

Its a non-issue because its not something the unions are going to try to control and the company let them control. Fighting over pass privileges are a complete waste of time. I would be highly pissed if a union focused on something so trivial when things like scope, health care cost and retirement need fixing.

+ 3

 

[WorldTraveler]

there is nothing to improve about pass privileges at DL compared to their peers.

DL and the rest of airlines don't want to negotiate anything.... they have just convinced the

DGS is a wholly owned subsidiary of DL, you do realize? DCI carriers contract for DL service, you know?


DL changed when you could leave your place of work to return to the car... they gave you a privilege before that they revoked.

You now have exactly what every union could have negotiated.

Your pass BENEFITS have only increased.

 

[737823]

Yeah, not quite. I'm looking at offer letters *I've* received. Travel is quite clearly not listed as either compensation or as a benefit.

Profit sharing? 401K match? Yep. That's compensation. It has a cost to the company, and you can sue over it when it's not received.

If you want to consider anything you get as an employee as compensation, then go for it, but employee travel programs are considered privileges, not compensation. That wording is quite deliberate.

Compensation is something you receive in exchange for your labor, and you can file a lawsuit when you don't receive it. Benefits are something you receive in exchange for your labor, and there's a quantifiable cost to the company to provide it.

Privileges typically cost nothing to the company to provide, and they can be revoked without recourse.

Travel is no more considered compensation than the ability to telecommute, receive professional training, expect toilet paper in the restroom, get a 10-20% discount on retail travel, eat free donuts at meeting or in the breakroom on holidays, or receive discounts from other companies.

None of those things are guaranteed. They're intangibles. They have no value to the employee unless they choose to use them, and there's no real cost to the company to offer it.

Sure, it's part of the overall employment package, but it's not compensation, and it's not a benefit.

As a banker, I'd think the fine print would be meaningful enough for you to notice the differences.

 
Feel however you want but airlines absolutely push non-rev travel as part of the comprehensive package they offer prospective employees.  I have seen and received offer letters indicating such, and recruiters and other headquarters staff always push this.   Often when airline recruiters contact top talent at banks and strategy consulting firms they justify the substandard compensation with (1) minimal working hours and (2) non-revenue travel. And they often push the lower cost of living and no state income tax (depending on the carrier and location).
 
Never understood the attraction to non-revenue travel, you sit around at the airport, get your seats at the last possible opportunity and are subject to being removed from the flight for a weight restriction or other operational need.  Loads and flight status can change rapidly and any number of flights between two cities could be wide open at one point and full up in only a short period leaving non-revs stranded-even in markets with many flights to fall back on like LAX-DFW or MIA-DFW. Work for a firm that requires business travel, achieve top tier status (or better yet UGS or CK) and be able to travel when, where and how you want-that is unless you want to stay home in the limited time off.  
 
Specific to the DL drive, non-rev privileges are not to be used for business or commercial purposes and if paid "activists" for this "grassroots" campaign are free riding on DL for IAM organizing DL could take action and would be well within their right.  The IAM doesn't have an agreement with DL to furnish travel for union business like the IAM has at carriers they "represent" airline employees.  Unlikely DL would but it would be interesting to watch...
 
Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Well, "Josh" if you have proof that's happening, then by all means do whatcha gotta do...

 

[737823]

Well, "Josh" if you have proof that's happening, then by all means do whatcha gotta do...

 
No proof, just saying it would be interesting to see how that would play out. Maybe not quite as interesting as the outrage among UA employees if/when GlobalFirst gets removed for the sUA international fleet and they don't have a near guaranteed cushy seat.
 
Josh

 

[Kev3188]

. Just making sure those aspersions get cast. Got it.

 

[737823]

No attack or anything, just saying it would be interesting to see how it plays out.  Again, the IAM has NO agreement with DL to provide for travel for organizing or union business purposes.
 
I know DL has worked with various charities in the past and extended NRSA privileges to Habitat for Humanity and a film about a disabled Georgia teen, Darius Goes West, among others I'm sure.
 
Josh