Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WorldTraveler]

hiring someone before it is clear what they will accomplish is not the way any rational person would work.

the idea of hiring a union should come with a pretty well defined idea of what they expect to accomplish, not some ethereal "we'll deal with what matters to you" after they are hired and can't realistically be fired.

and it is ALL up to negotiation with the standard if no agreement is reached being INDUSTRY STANDARD, not the above average including the rate of increase in compensation that has marked the past several years with all of its employees.

The Machinists simply wants to get its hands in the pockets of DL FAs as the largest currently non-union. They don't care if they can demonstrate they can accomplish anything.

and Kev was absolutely right that DL has paid its non-contract employees a premium relative to its peers in order to remain non-union.

absent that goal any longer, DL has no incentive to maintain its current rates of pay and progression.

Given the ongoing increases in pay in the industry, it won't take very long before a unionized DL FA group could become just industry average in their compensation.

 

[topDawg]

hiring someone before it is clear what they will accomplish is not the way any rational person would work.

yikes. 
 
I mean to bad that is exactly what happens every
single
time
anyone
ever
gets hired. 
 
Delta can hire a new FA tomorrow and guess what, they don't know what they are getting. Could be the best FA ever, could get fired in a week. Outside of being able to read into the future you don't know what your getting.
 
As it is though you clearly miss the point of a union. The union's job is to speak for the members. Not to come in promising candy and unicorn tears. Any time a union gets ready to nego a contract, be it DALPA, APFA, UALPA, APA etc. etc. they will poll the members on what they want to see (as well as things like meetings, emails etc. etc. ) 
 
It is impossible to the IAM to make big promises right now because they can't and don't know what the membership would want in a TA. 
 
The reason why is the IAM may get voted in and the FAs want to sell profit sharing for free life time pizza. Or they might get in and the FA group tells them we want everything just like it is. You can't really know what the group will want till they are in a union (because believe it or not, the NO voters will matter here too.) 
 

the idea of hiring a union should come with a pretty well defined idea of what they expect to accomplish, not some ethereal "we'll deal with what matters to you" after they are hired and can't realistically be fired.

No because them doing whatever they want does sound better....I mean its not like that is an issue at all with Delta now. I think you are right WT. Clearly a union should act just like Delta......"screw you and your opinion, we do what we want and take your money b**ches"
 
again....I don't think you really understand the point of a union or how they work. What you just said is the exact point of a union. Having the IAM do whatever they want for a CBA puts the FA group in a spot that is not any better than what they have now. No voice. No opinion.   
 

and it is ALL up to negotiation with the standard if no agreement is reached being INDUSTRY STANDARD, not the above average including the rate of increase in compensation that has marked the past several years with all of its employees.

what? I don't even know wtf this is even suspose to mean. 
 

The Machinists simply wants to get its hands in the pockets of DL FAs as the largest currently non-union. They don't care if they can demonstrate they can accomplish anything.

Calling 12,000 Delta FAs stupid once again. Butt hurt aint cool man.... 
 

and Kev was absolutely right that DL has paid its non-contract employees a premium relative to its peers in order to remain non-union.

to a point. Delta also pays us what they do to stay happy and productive. Even without a union Delta wants all of us to work hard. No candy for working hard anymore means no more working hard. 
get what you pay for and all that. 
 

absent that goal any longer, DL has no incentive to maintain its current rates of pay and progression.

Again, Delta is not butt hurt like you are about this. This isn't a game and they aren't 5 years old. Delta is not stupid. 
 
Like you have said many times If Delta wants to keep the current productivity they will pay for it. If they don't productivity will fall and the relationship will go to crap. The only person dumb enough to want that is you and Leo Mullin. (which I still think might be the same person)  
 

Given the ongoing increases in pay in the industry, it won't take very long before a unionized DL FA group could become just industry average in their compensation.

uh.... back to this again. Man the butt hurt is strong in this one... 

 

[robbedagain]

apparently Dawg  he is completely unhinged    he only been gone for almost a decade...   guess he cant grasp things as clearly as he allegedly says he does

 

[700UW]

Well said dawg.

 

[WorldTraveler]

A DL FA is hired with a very specific job description. It may change but it has been decided what they will do.

Saying that the IAM will do what the membership wants makes a complete mockery of the endless barrage of propaganda the IAM has generated trying to tell the FAs what is wrong with their company in hopes that they will get hired.

The IAM has no idea what it can accomplish or that it can accomplish anything at all in improving DL FAs' compensation, work rules, and other aspects of the employment experience.

IN fact, based on one CBA after another, all unions have done is rearrange parts of the employment experience - but at little to no additional cost to a company outside of the BK imposed cuts and recovery that the industry faced.

The IAM's experience at UA is an absolute abomination if ever there was one of the notion that a union could make a difference. Thousands of jobs have been and will be cut in a contract which the IAM put its stamp on - and collected dues to represent workers.

and the repeated excuse is that "the members voted for it" which should say simply that the ones in power that want to protect their jobs sought to the exclusion of many other junior members.

AA's rampers have been unable to stop the outsourcing that is sweeping across the industry on the ramp.


Outsourcing might not be the key issue for FAs and FAs are benefitting from the increased used of mainline aircraft but the principle remains the same. Unions have shown themselves effective ONLY at rearranging the deck chairs - not in forcing overall improvement that companies wouldn't have otherwise been willing to do.

If unions were as effective as some here think they are, then America wouldn't have the lowest level of union representation in the western world - and the IAM wouldn't have lost 1/3 of its members in a little over a decade.

 

[robbedagain]

then plz explain the INSOURCING that is occurring at the new AA

 

[WorldTraveler]

you tell me, robbed.

Insourcing revenue is reported on financial reports but nothing significant has changed so far.

I am very happy for you and AA if they can secure contracts to do work for other airlines alongside what it takes to run AA's operation.

 

[Kev3188]

Meanwhile, the majority of DL F/A's have decided to exercise their rights to push for progress in their work place

 

[WorldTraveler]

no answer to the question regarding the statement about giving DL a chance.

I have long commended Kev for being a critical thinker and I enjoy talking with dawg.

I don't, however, see much evidence that either have tried near as hard to make change internally at DL as they have complained about DL here and tried to figure out how to work within DL's structure - which is distinctly different from that at other airlines.

What I hope no one misses is that I think Kev and dawg are both very smart individuals who are clearly competent at what they do.

School teachers will tell you that there is always a kid or two who can't fit within the often-confining structure of a classroom but who are very smart and ultimately succeed well in life - but often by working in individual environments or where THEY are the ones calling the shots rather than as individual contributors to an organization.

let's see not only whether the FAs actually decide to vote for a union despite having played with them in the parking lot 3 times before but whether, even if hired, the Machinists union can deliver anything better in total than what DL FAs now have.

yes, they can rearrange the pieces -unions are good at doing that in the name of reflecting the desires of membership. what they haven't really demonstrated any success in doing is increasing the overall compensation above what a company was willing to spend in the first place.

 

[robbedagain]

rather than keep on outsourcing  it is a very good that a union regardless of how folks see it  that thru out the AA merger the IAM has secured Sect 6 contracts for PMUS   and brought work in house    not to mention several yrs ago the CWA brought work in house as well    On the other hand  DL can do as they plz as they see fit      Of course I would never expect an ANTI UNION    ANTI WORKER folks such as WT and Josh to fully understand but in my own opin this is job security for us    Now wt plz explain why NOT ALL OF the ramp at DL is completely mainline DL???????????   

 

[diamondcutter]

A DL FA is hired with a very specific job description. It may change but it has been decided what they will do.Saying that the IAM will do what the membership wants makes a complete mockery of the endless barrage of propaganda the IAM has generated trying to tell the FAs what is wrong with their company in hopes that they will get hired.The IAM has no idea what it can accomplish or that it can accomplish anything at all in improving DL FAs' compensation, work rules, and other aspects of the employment experience.IN fact, based on one CBA after another, all unions have done is rearrange parts of the employment experience - but at little to no additional cost to a company outside of the BK imposed cuts and recovery that the industry faced.The IAM's experience at UA is an absolute abomination if ever there was one of the notion that a union could make a difference. Thousands of jobs have been and will be cut in a contract which the IAM put its stamp on - and collected dues to represent workers.and the repeated excuse is that "the members voted for it" which should say simply that the ones in power that want to protect their jobs sought to the exclusion of many other junior members.AA's rampers have been unable to stop the outsourcing that is sweeping across the industry on the ramp.Outsourcing might not be the key issue for FAs and FAs are benefitting from the increased used of mainline aircraft but the principle remains the same. Unions have shown themselves effective ONLY at rearranging the deck chairs - not in forcing overall improvement that companies wouldn't have otherwise been willing to do.If unions were as effective as some here think they are, then America wouldn't have the lowest level of union representation in the western world - and the IAM wouldn't have lost 1/3 of its members in a little over a decade.

You keep forgetting the fact that with a union there are a set of rules in place the the employee and the company must adhere to. This is one of the main reasons for a union!! With a CBA in place , this puts all of the FA's on a level playing field . I know this concept is foreign to you , so spin away and start the defection.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and as much as you and others want to believe otherwise, DL has a set of rules in place as well. It is internally guided... the Rules of the Road that Kev has often referred to.

The difference is that DL asks its employees what is important to them and then makes the final decision. Some people aren't satisfied unless there is a party with the company on the oether side of the table, even if the evidence is overwhelming that DL has many things that are as good if not better than what other airlines provide their people even with a union.

Could DL be better? absolutely and I hope that people like Kev and dawg who think that DL is not doing the best will be willing to push their agendas up the line at the company as much as they are to believe a union can do better.

The FAs have repeatedly voiced displeasure with the way the company does things that has resulted in changes. DL is not in a box in which it can't hear or be aware of what its employees want.

And neither can unions prove that they can provide a better environment than what DL is providing, including the fastest growth in rates of compensation in the industry which has in many cases put DL employee total compensation above that of DL's competitors' employees.

 

[diamondcutter]

and as much as you and others want to believe otherwise, DL has a set of rules in place as well. It is internally guided... the Rules of the Road that Kev has often referred to.The difference is that DL asks its employees what is important to them and then makes the final decision. Some people aren't satisfied unless there is a party with the company on the oether side of the table, even if the evidence is overwhelming that DL has many things that are as good if not better than what other airlines provide their people even with a union.Could DL be better? absolutely and I hope that people like Kev and dawg who think that DL is not doing the best will be willing to push their agendas up the line at the company as much as they are to believe a union can do better.The FAs have repeatedly voiced displeasure with the way the company does things that has resulted in changes. DL is not in a box in which it can't hear or be aware of what its employees want.And neither can unions prove that they can provide a better environment than what DL is providing, including the fastest growth in rates of compensation in the industry which has in many cases put DL employee total compensation above that of DL's competitors' employees.

Fastest growth in rates of compensation in the industry, ok then tell me what a DL fa's top out hourly rate be next year or the next four years following!! I know what mine will be.

 

[swamt]

rather than keep on outsourcing  it is a very good that a union regardless of how folks see it  that thru out the AA merger the IAM has secured Sect 6 contracts for PMUS   and brought work in house    not to mention several yrs ago the CWA brought work in house as well    On the other hand  DL can do as they plz as they see fit      Of course I would never expect an ANTI UNION    ANTI WORKER folks such as WT and Josh to fully understand but in my own opin this is job security for us    Now wt plz explain why NOT ALL OF the ramp at DL is completely mainline DL???????????   

Robbed, I am sure you already know my stance on industrial unions?  Although I am happy to see the Delta F/A's go union (if voted in) I would rather see them go with a more Class-craft group specific union.  A union that is 100% focused on F/A's and F/A's only would benefit the F/A's much better than the TWU will by far.  The TWU has their hands in too many other class-craft groups and cannot solely focus on F/A's and that will take away from the F/A's.  Before anyone goes there, yes, SWA F/A's are indeed covered by the TWU, but they have been finding out as of late what is really the focus of the TWU.  I believe they too should get a much better class-craft focused group to represent them.  They, the TWU, still to this day REFUSES to attend the Labor Summit Union meetings since the Pilots have brought in the AMFA mechanics to it.  Very sad that they are still acting like children and holding grudges against a group at their airline that has never been represented by the TWU.
Good luck to all the F/A's on their up coming vote to unionize, I hope they can do it this time around.  I foresee 2015 a very busy union representation voting year...

 

[diamondcutter]

DL new insurance, this is just one ex.