Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WorldTraveler]

Fastest growth in rates of compensation in the industry, ok then tell me what a DL fa's top out hourly rate be next year or the next four years following!! I know what mine will be.

 
 
and as usual you want to exclude profit sharing - which provides a significant part of DL employees' compensation - and more than offsets the difference in base wages.

as for "knowing in advance" tell me how many people in the decade of the 2000s made plans based on their "guaranteed" base rates which got wiped out in BK = or in AA's case and has happened other times in the industry, with very little notice or ability to stop it by the employees.

BTW, OPEC's chief believes that the current era of very cheap oil could come to a quick end, which would take away a lot of the energy behind the current airline industry profits.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/opec-chief-sees-chance-of-oil-zooming-to-200-a-barrel-2015-01-26

even a doubling of crude oil prices back to $100 would divert billions of dollars in revenues away from unhedged airlines to pay for increased costs.
 

Robbed, I am sure you already know my stance on industrial unions?  Although I am happy to see the Delta F/A's go union (if voted in) I would rather see them go with a more Class-craft group specific union.  A union that is 100% focused on F/A's and F/A's only would benefit the F/A's much better than the TWU will by far.  The TWU has their hands in too many other class-craft groups and cannot solely focus on F/A's and that will take away from the F/A's.  Before anyone goes there, yes, SWA F/A's are indeed covered by the TWU, but they have been finding out as of late what is really the focus of the TWU.  I believe they too should get a much better class-craft focused group to represent them.  They, the TWU, still to this day REFUSES to attend the Labor Summit Union meetings since the Pilots have brought in the AMFA mechanics to it.  Very sad that they are still acting like children and holding grudges against a group at their airline that has never been represented by the TWU.
Good luck to all the F/A's on their up coming vote to unionize, I hope they can do it this time around.  I foresee 2015 a very busy union representation voting year...

great post, swamt.

And that is precisely the same issue the DL FAs will face if they hire the Machinists union which is spread all over the board, has very little representation among FAs, and is clearly more of a union in decline than one that can meet the needs of a specific and unique workgroup like airline FAs.

your post also highlights the continuous backbiting that goes on between unions and workgroups and which is well documented on this site but which some people magically believe will not exist at DL.

 

[Kev3188]

 

You keep forgetting the fact that with a union there are a set of rules in place the the employee and the company must adhere to. This is one of the main reasons for a union!! With a CBA in place , this puts all of the FA's on a level playing field .

Things like accountability and consistency aren't words one would normally use to describe the working conditions at the Widget.

 

[robbedagain]

swamt I agree with you bro.   Having been in the IAM since 98 with the exception when I was furloughed    Our FAs are covered by AFA-CWA   I believe. 
 
Swamt its truly ashame to see what the TWU is all about.   I know a nbr of AA folks  some of whom I work with in my station and they all prefer the IAM over the TWU   
 
Good Luck to the FAs at DL and hope to see them join officially and Hope to see ACS at the wiget as well go union

 

[WorldTraveler]

Things like accountability and consistency aren't words one would normally use to describe the working conditions at the Widget.

oh, they are there; it is just the reporting lines don't all converge on your name on the org chart that is the problem for you.

 

[diamondcutter]

and as usual you want to exclude profit sharing - which provides a significant part of DL employees' compensation - and more than offsets the difference in base wages.as for "knowing in advance" tell me how many people in the decade of the 2000s made plans based on their "guaranteed" base rates which got wiped out in BK = or in AA's case and has happened other times in the industry, with very little notice or ability to stop it by the employees.BTW, OPEC's chief believes that the current era of very cheap oil could come to a quick end, which would take away a lot of the energy behind the current airline industry profits.http://www.marketwatch.com/story/opec-chief-sees-chance-of-oil-zooming-to-200-a-barrel-2015-01-26even a doubling of crude oil prices back to $100 would divert billions of dollars in revenues away from unhedged airlines to pay for increased costs. great post, swamt.And that is precisely the same issue the DL FAs will face if they hire the Machinists union which is spread all over the board, has very little representation among FAs, and is clearly more of a union in decline than one that can meet the needs of a specific and unique workgroup like airline FAs.your post also highlights the continuous backbiting that goes on between unions and workgroups and which is well documented on this site but which some people magically believe will not exist at DL.

Well the if that's what opec said , there goes a lot of profit sharing !! While I enjoy my gaurenteed total value of my contract which is above DL! Thanks for pointing that out!!! You are a contestant contradiction!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

you fail to note that AA which so far as we know is the only carrier that will continue to choose not to be hedged will have to absorb those extra costs somehow.

The revenue reports that have come out from every carrier - and AA's tomorrow is not going to change it - is that there is little to no more room to raise fares. RASM growth has virtually topped out. Nonetheless, DL demonstrated in its earnings report that its revenues are growing faster than elsewhere in the industry and the couple percent greater revenue difference at DL is enough to cover for the hedge losses.

not once but twice in the past decade, AA employees' guaranteed salaries got whacked - and unions weren't able to do anything about it.

when the industry goes down the tubes, nothing is guaranteed.

 

[diamondcutter]

Of course that would take a BK , you think we all don't know that. Just like DL's got slashed during theirs!! My point is I know what I will be making each yr for the next 5 !! DL fa's don't and that's a fact!!!

 

[Kev3188]

It's a culture thang, darlin'...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Of course that would take a BK , you think we all don't know that. Just like DL's got slashed during theirs!! My point is I know what I will be making each yr for the next 5 !! DL fa's don't and that's a fact!!!

ask the AA FAs if they expected cuts in pay in both 2003 and 2012.

those plans went out the window.


twice.

 

[700UW]

 

[700UW]

 

[topDawg]

ask the AA FAs if they expected cuts in pay in both 2003 and 2012.

those plans went out the window.


twice.

 uh.... Delta made....3-4 I think pay cuts in BK(or up to BK) 
Don't let logic and facts get the way. 
 

A DL FA is hired with a very specific job description. It may change but it has been decided what they will do.

Okay they have a job description.....da f**k does that mean? 
Again, every....single.....time....some hires someone they have no earthly idea what they are going to get. They can make educated guess by looking at things like work history, tests and interviews but at the end of the day you have no idea what you are getting. 
Job description or not. (but I see that you went full stupid in this post, sadly this is the least of the stupid that flows in this post) 
 

Saying that the IAM will do what the membership wants makes a complete mockery of the endless barrage of propaganda the IAM has generated trying to tell the FAs what is wrong with their company in hopes that they will get hired.

What in the actual f**k are you talking about here? The only "propaganda" I have seen for the IAM are on two things
Delta can't do whatever the hell they want with a CBA(fact)
The IAM membership generally have better health care plans and the IAM will try to change that for the Delta FAs. 

the rest of it is lies and bull crap YOU are saying and people like me, Kev and 700 are trying to point out that YOU are wrong. (a general trend I am seeing from you) 

IN fact, based on one CBA after another, all unions have done is rearrange parts of the employment experience - but at little to no additional cost to a company outside of the BK imposed cuts and recovery that the industry faced.

Oh good lord. 
All I can say at this point is you are very very ignorate on this issue. Pick up a book and learn some history. 
 
I really just......I don't even have a comment on this. It is just so amazingly stupid I don't even know what to say. I mean all the changes in just safety aspect unions have made....
 
wow. Just wow. 

The IAM's experience at UA is an absolute abomination if ever there was one of the notion that a union could make a difference. Thousands of jobs have been and will be cut in a contract which the IAM put its stamp on - and collected dues to represent workers.

the membership voted on it. When you are learning US history pick up a union law book too. 
 

and the repeated excuse is that "the members voted for it" which should say simply that the ones in power that want to protect their jobs sought to the exclusion of many other junior members.

Maybe? Thats how unions roll sometimes. s**t does roll down hill, doesn't matter if its UA or Delta. 

 

Outsourcing might not be the key issue for FAs and FAs are benefitting from the increased used of mainline aircraft but the principle remains the same. Unions have shown themselves effective ONLY at rearranging the deck chairs - not in forcing overall improvement that companies wouldn't have otherwise been willing to do.

 Once again, just ignorant man. So so so much ignorance I don't even know what to say.  
 
you really need to pick up a book. Use google..... pray to God for help.....something because to say **** so amazingly stupid is amazing to me. I understand you are biased but good lord... 
 
as someone who comes from coal miners all I can do at this point is pray for you. 

and as much as you and others want to believe otherwise, DL has a set of rules in place as well. It is internally guided... the Rules of the Road that Kev has often referred to.

Wanna know how I know you don't know what you are talking about? 
 
I don't have a single work rule in the RR. All my work rules (that can be changed at anytime, any second) are in TOPPS........
 
Please tell me where in the Rules of the Road the RR limits are........?(am still waiting on those btw)

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, DL did not make 3-4 pay cuts between 9/11 and BK. I was there.

for whatever reason, DL cut too deep on prescription costs and has reversed a lot of those cuts. Öf course we wouldn't expect the Machinists union propaganda to reflect those changes.

and health care costs are not universally shared by a lot of employees, some of whom including Kev by his own word, have switched away from DL insurance. Employees who don't have DL insurance would far rather have more money in some other way - or perhaps "buy" some QOL and let someone else's insurance cover their health care costs.

and you can argue about work rules all you want but more restrictive work rules do come with a cost... and if DL FAs think they can add increased/stronger work rules that increase DL's costs without it coming from somewhere else, they are mistaken. The DL pilot contract is full of examples of where the pilots gave up certain work rules in order to gain pay.

and it is absolutely true that unions DO NOT have a stronger track record in gaining overall increased compensation than non-union peers in the airline industry.


again, saying that the membership voted on eliminating thousands of jobs is a sacrilege to the notion that unions are there to save jobs. Are DL FAs supposed to be comforted if Anderson trots out the same NW plan to outsource huge chunks of NW's FA jobs - and the membership votes on because DL pays off a handful of senior FAs who are in power at the union?

 

[Kev3188]

 

Don't let logic and facts get the way.

Why let either get in the way of some rhetoric?
 

I really just......I don't even have a comment on this. It is just so amazingly stupid I don't even know what to say.

Do the codes words/dog whistle messaging look familiar? They should...

 

[topDawg]

no, DL did not make 3-4 pay cuts between 9/11 and BK. I was there.

You might have been but Gerry made two cuts, one in 2004 and one in 2005. Leo in 2001 and I am pretty sure in 2003. 
 

for whatever reason, DL cut too deep on prescription costs and has reversed a lot of those cuts. Öf course we wouldn't expect the Machinists union propaganda to reflect those changes.

Lol and of course the figured out the mistake right after they were told of the union vote for the FAs. 
Damn talk about timing..... 
 

and health care costs are not universally shared by a lot of employees, some of whom including Kev by his own word, have switched away from DL insurance. Employees who don't have DL insurance would far rather have more money in some other way - or perhaps "buy" some QOL and let someone else's insurance cover their health care costs.

That might be. I have a feeling that you will find the vast majority of employees at Delta don't fit this mold. 
 
but it easy to fix, just like PPT you should be able to op out of the health care coverage for something else. Maybe an extra week of vacation or something.... (I don't really know what, I have no idea what kinds of cost we are talking about here per employee) 
 

and you can argue about work rules all you want but more restrictive work rules do come with a cost... and if DL FAs think they can add increased/stronger work rules that increase DL's costs without it coming from somewhere else, they are mistaken. The DL pilot contract is full of examples of where the pilots gave up certain work rules in order to gain pay.

yeah see about this. 
 
This isn't BK world anymore. I know that worked when we were burning money but it doesn't work with me anymore. Sharholders are getting paid, Executives are getting paid so what's that saying....... oh yes, FUPM 
 
*note not saying employee cost should drasticly go up clearly but to say you have to trade pay for small work rules gains doesn't work with me anymore. Clearly if a group wants big time work rule changes then yes they should have to give something up, but for small gains (ie extra week of PPT, Extra week of vacation, less outsourcing to a limit) then nope. those days are gone. Let me know when Delta's profits become flat and we will talk about trades. 

and it is absolutely true that unions DO NOT have a stronger track record in gaining overall increased compensation than non-union peers in the airline industry.

Like i said. Buy a book dude. I am not trying to insult you but it quite clear you are very ignorant when it comes to unions, laws, RLA, section 6 and US history. 

 

again, saying that the membership voted on eliminating thousands of jobs is a sacrilege to the notion that unions are there to save jobs. Are DL FAs supposed to be comforted if Anderson trots out the same NW plan to outsource huge chunks of NW's FA jobs - and the membership votes on because DL pays off a handful of senior FAs who are in power at the union?

If that is what the FAs vote for sure.....? 
 
A union isn't around "just" to protect jobs. Like we saw with some of United outsourcing in MX. The United guys voted to keep better pay and other QOL in turn more greater outsourcing. 
On the flip side we see AA having some of the worst QOL but less outsourcing. 
 
but you also have to remember that, like I said above the industry is changing. Getting these concessionary contracts is coming to an end. Unions just aren't going to agree to take cuts or cost neutral contracts anymore. Back in the up swing of things........
 
and soon enough we will be falling again. Round and round and round we go..........
 
but back to the point, these statement just shows you are over your head here......