Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[topDawg]

 

Why let either get in the way of some rhetoric?
 

Do the codes words/dog whistle messaging look familiar? They should...

It is just that I grew up in a family that had not only airline union member but coal miners. So i am well aware of union history. 
 
In the airlines things like the FAA hot line, new pilot rest rules and training rules are all in part due to unions. These are things to not only protect us but people like WT (from, oddly enough.....people like WT) so it is kind of amazing he doesn't know any of this. 
 
but in the town my great grandfather mined in there is a small museum. Just outside the mine in a list, year by year, over every member who died. When you first look at the list you notices that the death toll goes from 50/40 or so a year down into the single digits. The unions did that.
And to say companies want things like that and would have done it anyway is laughable and stupid. Even now Richard Anderson just the other day was complaining about FAR117. A FAR that came around after paying PAX DIED........

 

[Kev3188]

100% with you on all of that...

 

[WorldTraveler]

It is great to talk about what the unions did years ago but people who join a union want to know what they can do today.

given that the majority of DL employees did not grow up in heavily unionized parts of the country or families - based purely on the decline in union membership over the past generation - there are not going to be DL employees who vote for unions based on what they did in the past.

Anderson is not the first to question whether the 117 rules went too far. given that the future of the regional carrier industry in the US hangs on making adjustments to 117 to allow the industry to place new pilots, it is absolutely fair to ask whether the rules have accomplished what was intended without causing excessive burden to the industry and to consumers. The US government is required to do that kind of assessment when it makes rules.

given that DL has been one of the most aggressive in hiring new mainline pilots and also in shrinking regional jet operations, DL is the least likely to be impacted if 117 isn't fixed.

no one including me has ever said that any airline or the government should sacrifice safety.

 

[topDawg]

It is great to talk about what the unions did years ago but people who join a union want to know what they can do today.

no. nope. not happening. You made your completely stupid statement bed now you get to lay in it. You said AND I QUOTE........ "Outsourcing might not be the key issue for FAs and FAs are benefitting from the increased used of mainline aircraft but the principle remains the same. Unions have shown themselves effective ONLY at rearranging the deck chairs - not in forcing overall improvement that companies wouldn't have otherwise been willing to do."

Again. It was a stupid statement, very stupid statement. I have, again, proved you wrong (and what unions can do today, uh FAR117 is what two years old?) again. 
 
you don't get to change what you say after you say something dumb. 

given that the majority of DL employees did not grow up in heavily unionized parts of the country or families - based purely on the decline in union membership over the past generation - there are not going to be DL employees who vote for unions based on what they did in the past.

then what are the going to vote on..... the uh..... 
 
future?
 
Did i miss a requirement for working for Delta? must be able to see into the future? 
 
Just keep digging that hole WT...... smh

Anderson is not the first to question whether the 117 rules went too far. given that the future of the regional carrier industry in the US hangs on making adjustments to 117 to allow the industry to place new pilots, it is absolutely fair to ask whether the rules have accomplished what was intended without causing excessive burden to the industry and to consumers. The US government is required to do that kind of assessment when it makes rules.

Okay note the bold, I'll be back to that. 
 
but for that last part, no the US government is not, in any way, required to figure out if Delta will be able to staff 9E and pay them cents on the dollar for it. Pilots are out there in big numbers, FAR117 isn't the problem, its Delta, American and United whipsawing the regionals that is the problem. The FAA did the right thing here. They did what is best for the people's safety, not the companies bottom line. I would not ever expect you to understand that. 
 

given that DL has been one of the most aggressive in hiring new mainline pilots and also in shrinking regional jet operations, DL is the least likely to be impacted if 117 isn't fixed.

Lol 
Which is why he directly said it is an issue for Delta. 
 
9E can hardly staff the planes they have. 
 

no one including me has ever said that any airline or the government should sacrifice safety.

Look at the bold i highlighted for you. That is EXACTLY what you just said. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, I did not say that the anyone should sacrifice safety. You might have interpreted that... but that is your error, just as much as you would like to and are free to argue that you are indeed happy at DL.


let's be very clear that 117 wasn't a union initiative that was negotiated with airlines. The government imposed it.

if there were enough pilots who could staff regionals, then higher salaries would fix the problem. the reason why regional carrier salaries aren't rising is because there aren't enough pilots who meet FAA requirements to be commercial pilots.

and you can still go back to the coal mines and tell us what unions did - and I am not doubting that.

airline employees - and specifically DL FAs who will vote on hiring the Machinists union - will vote on what unions have done for their peers IN TOTAL compared to what DL FAs have.

 

[topDawg]

let's be very clear that 117 wasn't a union initiative that was negotiated with airlines. The government imposed it.

If it wasn't for the unions the airline lobbyist would have crushed it.
 
If its STILL wasn't for the unions the law would have already been change. A key reason why it wont is because the FAA knows that the second they change it ALPA, APA etc. will be dumping every cent they can into letting the public know that all it takes is better lobbying and the law is changed. safety be damned.  
 

if there were enough pilots who could staff regionals, then higher salaries would fix the problem. the reason why regional carrier salaries aren't rising is because there aren't enough pilots who meet FAA requirements to be commercial pilots.

lol 
 
lol
 
 
lolololololololol 
 
you have your head in the sand if you really believe that. 
 

and you can still go back to the coal mines and tell us what unions did - and I am not doubting that.

that is exactly what you said. 
 

airline employees - and specifically DL FAs who will vote on hiring the Machinists union - will vote on what unions have done for their peers IN TOTAL compared to what DL FAs have.

I am sure they will. The problem is all you do is tell us what they don't and do have......but can't give us a single work rule comparison. 
 
 
so in other words......talking out of your ass...... 

 

[Kev3188]

Let's not forget things like KCM and ASAP. Do people think airline employees just waltzed on to Capitol Hill individually and used their "direct relationship" to affect those changes?

How 'bout the work being done to thwart NAI?

 

[WorldTraveler]

it is absolutely appalling and telling that you two believe that companies are willing to sacrifice safety and cut corners in order to make money.

Your company REGULARLY operates at parameters well above federal requirements or above what unions have required.

Your company has REGULARLY cooperated with federal regulators to increase safety at DL's own costs.

 

[topDawg]

Let's not forget things like KCM and ASAP. Do people think airline employees just waltzed on to Capitol Hill individually and used their "direct relationship" to affect those changes?

How 'bout the work being done to thwart NAI?

the issue here is WT game he plays. 
 
Its just like him running his mouth about how AA, FIRST CONTRACT OUT OF BK, isn't doing the same as Delta. 
 
Even though, two years after BK people like me and you weren't making nearly what we are now. It has taken Delta what...8 years? to get to where they are today. AA and its unions should be right here with us in his twisted mind. 
 
If AA's mechanics get Delta + 7% and the same scope AA has now I would say that is such a better win than what we had right out of BK it isn't funny. Profit sharing be damned. 

 

[topDawg]

it is absolutely appalling and telling that you two believe that companies are willing to sacrifice safety and cut corners in order to make money.

Your company REGULARLY operates at parameters well above federal requirements or above what unions have required.

Your company has REGULARLY cooperated with federal regulators to increase safety at DL's own costs.

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=13773

 

[WorldTraveler]

and the evidence that DL intentionally acted against FAA guidelines comes from ....?

and that is YOUR department, right?

are the beancounters over at the GO supposed to track and fix that stuff?

 

[topDawg]

and the evidence that DL intentionally acted against FAA guidelines comes from ....?

and that is YOUR department, right?

are the beancounters over at the GO supposed to track and fix that stuff?

uh no. Don't believe any of those airplanes came into the hangar for a c-check.... and I am saying that kind of stuff should not ever happen. Ever. 
 
and fighting against FAR117 is not safety. It is money. they literately KILLED people because of lack training. Now they want to go back to the same system and you are telling me they are trying to be 100% safe.......? 
 
dude whatever you say. 

 

[700UW]

Explain how the IAM PMUS Ramp CBA then.
 
9.53% raise on DOS, yes thats just one of the raises they will receive, and raises past the amendable date are also in the CBA.
 
Scope language for seven mainline flights a week including AA metal.
 
No concessions.

 

[Kev3188]

Imagine that.

BTW, can someone tell the audience what the full name of the IAMAW is? I know it's cute to hiss the word "machinists," but there's a whole 2nd half to it...

 

[700UW]

International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.