Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[topDawg]

paragraph 2 has some pretty strong words

I still think that you might be surprised to find that discussions regarding Tech Ops future and the Airbus widebody order were linked.

I'm not surprised at all. Any order Delta made was going to be linked to TechOps. As 767s go P4000s and CF6s go with them. Delta had two choices, dump those lines and focus on smaller engines or try to work a deal with GE and/or RR for GEnX, Trent 1000, Trent XWB and Trent 7000 work. I didn't think both sides would come to any kind of agreement because all the latest big engines Delta has ordered have been supported by power by the hour agreements. 
 
Look the deal here was always going to be does the TechOps leadership push the issue. I don't believe for a second that Richard or Ed would tell Don and his team no if they could prove that 1) doing this or that in-house will bring in more money and/or 2) Doing it in-house would be better for Delta's reliability if they did it in-house.
 
the problem is 1) can/will Don and his team work up the chain of command to get it done. They have proved with the 330 c-checks and now this that they will 2) Does TechOps leadership want to do it.
Under Tony and John they have no problem setting up TechOps to be, for the most part, gone. Tony cut things just to cut them and then pushed his Mexico baby. (and John just followed Tony) I honestly believe though that Tony's plan was to send work to Mexico as much as possible. I believe had he been told to do big engines in-house his first plan would have been move it to Mexico. 
 
but he is gone now and Don seems to be completely different than those two so I am glad.  
 
I am curious what Southwind thinks will happen. After all this is more in his area than mine. Hangar aint going anywhere. 
 
 
 
 
 
I also wanted to add, I am curious to know how much Peter Turner had to do with this. Worked at Rollers for a long time

 

[700UW]

If I am not mistaken doesnt TAESL have the exclusive rights for warranty work and any outsourced engine that RR makes do overhaul in North America?
 
PSA had that with RR when they had their engine shop, an airline can overhaul their own RR but couldnt do third party work on them.
 
That engine shop kept PSA around a lot longer than they should have been.

 

[WorldTraveler]

that is the big question which hasn't been made known.

but the chances are VERY high that DL has come up with a deal to allow it to at least do its own work or perhaps even become a RR service center. IOW, Rolls Royce might have stripped AA/TAESL of exclusivity in order to get the DL order.

The letter contains indications that DL had a strategy in mind with Tech Ops as part of the Airbus/RR widebody order

given that RR has the power to modify its own agreements, it could very well have succumbed to DL's pressure to do the work inhouse.

the reasons dawg mentions are all valid - but it isn't lost on DL that some of TAESL's profits do go to AA.

 

[700UW]

If TAESL has exclusive rights then no one can do third party work on the engines except TAESL, thats how it was with PSA and Rolls.
 
And Rolls cant strip AA of anything, they have a legal and binding contract, there would have to be provisions in it or both sides negotiate a change.

 

[WorldTraveler]

since you don't even know that corporations can be US citizens, you would be better served to let Rolls Royce's lawyers determine what they can and can't do.

And AA is in a partnership with RR and not the other way around. I am sure that if you could read the language in the contract, RR determines the exclusivity, not AA.

what is apparent and what you once again refuse to acknowledge is that DL has clearly made another advance in protecting the future of its workers and negotiated a contract that allows them to do that. and no union had anything to do with it.

 

[700UW]

And you dont know what is in the contract between AA and RR.
 
You are posting misinformation and speculation, you should have used your Spectator name since you are speculating, World Fraudster strikes again.
 
I asked a legitimate question and raised issues, you have to insult and attack once again and throw things in the post that have NOTHING to do with AA and RR and their joint venture.
 
Lets see you been gone from DL for over eight years, last time I checked you didnt work TechOps nor have an A&P nor anything to do with DL and its maintenance.
 
You are on the outside looking in, you never turned a wrench.
 

 
TAESL, Texas Aero Engine Service LLC, was formed in April 1998 as a 50:50 joint venture between American Airlines and Rolls-Royce. It repairs and overhauls the RB211 engine, which American has on its Boeing 757 fleet, and the Trent 800 engine, which is on American's Boeing 777 aircraft.

In 2008 TAESL celebrates its 10th anniversary and in 2007 a significant milestone was reached with the overhaul of its 1,500th engine. TAESL is capable of overhauling 300 large jet engines annually in North America, offering the highest quality and most comprehensive service to their customers.

TAESL is the largest Rolls-Royce RB211-535 engine overhaul shop in the world.

And look who some of their customers are:
 
http://www.taesl.com/customers.asp
 
Hint DL uses TAESL.

 

[topDawg]

If I am not mistaken doesnt TAESL have the exclusive rights for warranty work and any outsourced engine that RR makes do overhaul in North America?
 
PSA had that with RR when they had their engine shop, an airline can overhaul their own RR but couldnt do third party work on them.
 
That engine shop kept PSA around a lot longer than they should have been.

Generally it would be by engine. So it would be for Trent 800 and RB211-535 engines. 
I wont say that you said isn't the case but I will also say that I would be completely shocked if that was the case for any engine outside of the engines TAESL worked on. 
 

that is the big question which hasn't been made known.

Unlikely though. At best AA/TAESL would have had first rights for any new Trent engines in the US. 
 
but that is why I said it would be interesting to see what happens here. 
 

but the chances are VERY high that DL has come up with a deal to allow it to at least do its own work or perhaps even become a RR service center. IOW, Rolls Royce might have stripped AA/TAESL of exclusivity in order to get the DL order.

Well Rolls wouldn't be able to strip TAESL of anything if it was part of a contract, however I can pretty much promise Delta is going to become a RR MRO. It basically says in the memo that they will be. (It doesn't name engines, but Delta isn't building a new large test cell for V2500s and GTFs.) 
 

The letter contains indications that DL had a strategy in mind with Tech Ops as part of the Airbus/RR widebody order

sure they did. You always do when you go into a big order like that. 
 

given that RR has the power to modify its own agreements, it could very well have succumbed to DL's pressure to do the work inhouse.

Might not have been any pressure. You have three US carriers with Trent XWBs on order. Two with Trent 7000s and it wouldn't shock me if AA jumped on the 330NEO train also. 
So there will be plenty of volume.
 
and if Delta does add the Trent 1000, the Trent 7000 is a lot like that  Trent 1000-TEN. I am not sure if they could go down the same engine line or not(unlikely) but a ton of components will be the same. 
 

the reasons dawg mentions are all valid - but it isn't lost on DL that some of TAESL's profits do go to AA.

Yes they do but you have to understand how the TotalCare network works. 
 
When you sign a TotalCare agreement you are basically going to give your engines to Rollers and then they pick and chose who does what and where. Rolls is almost always going to go with the closest vendor simply due to costs (and they don't care if Delta is giving money to AA or AA is giving money to DL)
 
but more importantly as I have said to you before the pissing contests stop at the terminal. Delta does work for plenty of its own competitors. Example, AS sends it CFM56-7s to TechOps for overhaul. Why haven't they changed? because TechOps is the best vendor for them.
 
So I can promise Delta would much rather send that little bit of revenue to AA than paying the extra costs to ship the puppies to HAESL or N3 or any other RR vendors not in the US. 
 
 
 
and FWIW, I'll almost bet UA and AA end up sending their TXWBs to TechOps and not have a single problem with it. (assuming TechOps opens a TXWB service center and those carriers don't.) 

 

[topDawg]

since you don't even know that corporations can be US citizens, you would be better served to let Rolls Royce's lawyers determine what they can and can't do.

And AA is in a partnership with RR and not the other way around. I am sure that if you could read the language in the contract, RR determines the exclusivity, not AA.

what is apparent and what you once again refuse to acknowledge is that DL has clearly made another advance in protecting the future of its workers and negotiated a contract that allows them to do that. and no union had anything to do with it.

FWIW these OEM/MRO contracts are two way streets. AA isn't going to agree to a JV without some protections just like RR isn't going to agree to a JV without protections. 
As I said I imagine TAESL has some level of exclusivity for Trent 800s and RB211s. Not only that but it would be fairly foolish to open another MRO for those engines when AA is the largest operator for them in the US. 
 
Having said that, with all the TrentXWB volume in the world, and a lot less MROs, its completely possible RR opens a JV with Delta and still ends up adding the TXWB to TAESLs engine lines. 

 

[700UW]

Hey Dawg,

Your forgot about DL getting VS' A340s, funny they just parked a few more, dont see them flying in DL colors, lol.
 
Add that to his list of failures.

 

[topDawg]

Hey Dawg,
Your forgot about DL getting VS' A340s, funny they just parked a few more, dont see them flying in DL colors, lol.
 
Add that to his list of failures.

And what is funny, he told me to talk to pilots.........
 
 
and they are the ones who got that (stupid) rumor going. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

your scenario seems reasonable, dawg.

but I'm still not convinced that DL is content to simply take just DL's business and do it inhouse.

also the 717 engines are an issue.


you might believe that other carriers would simply send tens of millions (probably hundreds of millions) of dollars of work to a competitor, but with all due respect, that is why you aren't in management.

Your bosses are smart enough to know that the 25% margins that DL gets on engine overhauls is simply money that DL is not going to send to AA.

and until you have proof that another US carrier would do that, you are wrong.

DL UNDOUBTEDLY said that they will not send the new RR engines to TAESL if RR wants the order. Remember, DL could have done a deal with Boeing as well. the 350/787 was basically a toss up in DL's words.

I still that DL will be willing to send the 717 engines out either, esp. given that AA doesn't operate them and DL will operate the majority of the world's 717s.

feel free to prove me wrong when all is said and done but I think two big pieces of work are coming to DL.

As for the 772ER engines, that might stay right where it is.

 

[700UW]

DL is a customer or TAESL, you are a piece of work.
 
And DL has already signed PBH contracts on engines.
 
Clueless World Fraudster.

 

[topDawg]

but I'm still not convinced that DL is content to simply take just DL's business and do it inhouse.

50 engines isn't a lot of volume to spend the money to bring both of these engines in-house. I might agree if it was an engine that Delta didn't have to make big investments for. 
50 TXWBS and 50 T7000 will require two lines, but I am not sure you could keep two lines going year round without extra work. 
 
Generally you want 100 or so engines to start a line. If it wasn't for all the MRO work the 4000s would probably be sent out at Delta for example. Without the 744 engines I don't believe the numbers are there. 
 

you might believe that other carriers would simply send tens of millions (probably hundreds of millions) of dollars of work to a competitor, but with all due respect, that is why you aren't in management.

Okay two things, Again, i have the education. I don't need to be called stupid
more importantly, carriers do send tens of millions worth of cash to competitors to do their work. Would you like some examples? 
HA, a Delta competitor, just happens to be TechOps largest customer. 
AS, a Delta competitor, sends its engines to Delta for work. Worth millions.
AA, a Delta competitor, has in the past sent work to Delta (PW2000s). Worth millions
Would you like more? how about not dealing with Delta
Air France/KLM just got an engine deal worth 1 BILLION (with a B) to support Air China's GE90 engines.
Air France/KLM also just won a contract to support Thai's fleet of 787s.
Lufthansa supports Virgins A330s.
 
Should I go on? Clearly I shouldn't be in management because the list above must all be lies. Matter of fact Delta makes a little over 500M a year in revenue from doing MRO work but it must all be .gov work because no carrier is going to give millions to Delta to do work.
 
 
Again, You don't understand how they power by the hour agreement works.    
 

Your bosses are smart enough to know that the 25% margins that DL gets on engine overhauls is simply money that DL is not going to send to AA.

Yet they do it every year when T800s get sent to AFW. Yet they do it ever year when V2500s get sent to NZ. Yet they do it every year when they send 767,330s, 747s to Asia to have checks done by MROs like HAECO (Owned by Swire Group who owns CX), EGAT (owned by Evergreen who owns EVA air) 
Should I go on?

and until you have proof that another US carrier would do that, you are wrong.

above. 
 

DL UNDOUBTEDLY said that they will not send the new RR engines to TAESL if RR wants the order. Remember, DL could have done a deal with Boeing as well. the 350/787 was basically a toss up in DL's words.

Lol. Again, the world doesn't work that way. I imagine that in some way that is true but not nearly the way you point it out to be.  
 

I still that DL will be willing to send the 717 engines out either, esp. given that AA doesn't operate them and DL will operate the majority of the world's 717s.

Delta is sending the 717 engines out. They go to IND to have the gear boxs pulled (IIRC) then are sent to Darby. This is already happening(I'm not even sure if Delta owns these engines. I imagine that RR does but possibly Boeing. 
 
 

As for the 772ER engines, that might stay right where it is.

the only way it isn't is if RR/AA shut TAESL down. Then I wouldn't be shocked at all to see a DL/RR JV pick up T800 work. 

 

[topDawg]

DL is a customer or TAESL, you are a piece of work.
 
And DL has already signed PBH contracts on engines.
 
Clueless World Fraudster.

Delta sends a ton of work to competitors. Both US and international. 
 
There are very few MROs that are part of an airline or an airline group. About the only way Delta could make sure they aren't send work to competitors is to do it in-house.
 
Even TIMCO (the largest or 2nd largest MRO in the US) is owned by HEACO who is owned by the holding company that owns CX.
Of the major MROs, The only big, non-OEMs, I can think of that aren't part of an airline is AAR and ST aerospace.  
Other than that the major MROs are LH, HAECO(CX), AMECO (LH/CA), AF/KL, BA/IB. 

 

[700UW]

He will never get it.
 
He is a legend in his own mind.