Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WeAAsles]

BS again trying to spin . AA started to hire when US did . AA offered 40, 000 buy outs and about 2,400 took it!!!

And that raving fool also doesn't take into account that the chart dates the rates all the way back to 2005. For only 2 years according to figures was Delta Fa's compensated better than just one of their peers. Once the APFA vote is ratified, Delta FA's will once again be at the BOTTOM of the industry where they have languished for at least the last 10 years and more than likely much longer.

 

[WorldTraveler]

BS again trying to spin . AA started to hire when US did . AA offered 40, 000 buy outs and about 2,400 took it!!!

and DL has offered early outs AT LEAST every two years - and sometimes as often as once per year - and the average number of employees that have taken is 2000 per offer.

I don't know the number of FAs that have left DL and you certainly don't know totals of who has come at at AA or US but DL has been more aggressive in hiring FAs since the merger than any other legacy carrier - and more aggressive than even WN.

DL has added several thousand new flight attendants, far more than what any other carrier has added and that does bring down their AVERAGE cost per employee.  
 

Are you now purposefully trying to ignore this statement and the Airline Financials chart? BTW that chart only represnts the 2013 rates. When you factor in a full year of the APFA's secured new compensation package the difference between the two groups is going to be even far more stark. Delta FA's are being left behind and when ratified they will be at the BOTTOM against all their peers. 
 

 
From the union's point of view, fixed permanent wage increases trump the possibility of [background=transparent]share price[/background] gains.

and, again, you are trying to philosophically defend a position that profit sharing is not as valuable as straight negotiated salary scales.

If you are convinced you are right, why do you argue the point? If DL is wrong that its employees will make less over time, then you shouldn't be worried.

But even NOW - this year - AA FA's supposedly industry leading contract doesn't come close to including the appropriate value of profit sharing for DL FAs - and I am using the calculations that the APFA released.

Feel free to argue the point that profit sharing plus salary will come up less than salary alone but the vast majority of other airline employees in the US have profit sharing, WN employees have benefitted enormously by it, and DL employees have now accumulated billions of dollars of profit sharing which unions simply want to pretend doesn't exist and won't be there in the future.

hang on to your dated, obsolete ideas which are the EXACT reasons why labor unions are in decline.

The airline industry has consolidated as has been said it needed to do in order to generate stable and continuous profitability and labor unions at AA have completely ignored that reality and are still clinging to the idea that profit sharing is transitory and unpredictable.

Meanwhile, DL FAs ALONE will accumulate $250M or more in earnings that the APFA and you as their champion fail to include in the total compensation calculations.

the real rub is that the APFA negotiated pay raises in future years which are a fraction of the increased pay and profit sharing that DL has provided its employees over the past few years.

Not only does the AA/APFA deal leave AA FAs paid less than DL FAs but the gap will grow - and by much larger amounts - in the future years of the contract.

 

[Kev3188]

WeAAsles--

The other thing to keep in mind is that DL always uses TOS rates for any charts/messaging. Often, the disparities are much larger at the lower scale steps...

 

[Kev3188]

and DL has offered early outs AT LEAST every two years - and sometimes as often as once per year - and the average number of employees that have taken is 2000 per offer.

Where did you see that? I'd be curious to look at a year-by-year rundown-if it's by workgroup, that'd be all the better.



 

and, again, you are trying to philosophically defend a position that profit sharing is not as valuable as straight negotiated salary scales.

...And you are trying to do just the opposite. What makes you think you're any "righter" then he is?
 

If you are convinced you are right, why do you argue the point?

One could ask you the same thing.


...And again, in the end, it's up to the AA F/A's to VOTE on whether or not this is a CBA that meets their needs. DL employees do not have that option.

 

[diamondcutter]

Yes I forget DL FA's are buying cars and homes with that profit sharing check !! SMDH. Ok you win then DL. Is industry leading in profit sharing ONLY, if that makes you feel better!!!! Would rather be industry leading in many areas!!!! Since that is the only thing you focus on!! WT , don't you always PREACH that all of us have to look at all the numbers? Really proves you know nothing of the AA TA!!!

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles--

The other thing to keep in mind is that DL always uses TOS rates for any charts/messaging. Often, the disparities are much larger at the lower scale steps...

Kev could you give me a rundown of those disparities among the FSC group. We actually have some people who want to compare what we get over what you get and all they seem to focus on are those TOS rates. It does get frustrating sometimes since you have to explain the concept of Total Value Compensation and PERCENTAGES all the time.

Airline Financials show that metric among the FA group but not ground workers.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
I don't know the numbers of employees that have left at DL by workgroup.

If you have them, share them.

I am quite sure no one at any other carrier knows either.

I do know that the number of FAs that are being hired has been released by carrier multiple times and DL has hired more than any other airline.

---

the best part of this industry is that there is so much public information and it does go into the level of detail necessary to deduce whether labor agreements were the best possible.

Airlines including AA do report their labor costs by workgroup.

it is absolutely possible to determine whether DL FAs actually benefit more than their peers at AA.

Using DOT data, DL's FAs saw an 8.3% increase in salary (including profit sharing) between 2012 and 2013 (obviously 2014 is not complete and data is not available).

You know full well that DL did not give 8% pay raises in 2013 to its FAs. The effect of profit sharing is obvious in bringing up DL FA salaries, even though DL was hiring FAs at the bottom of the scale.

 

[Kev3188]

If you have them, share them.

If I had them, I wouldn't have asked.

You can at least point me to where you got the "average of 2k" statistic.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'll send you a PM, Kevin

 

[Kev3188]

Please don't.

Just show me how to get there on here. if it's proprietary (or something on DLNet) I'll understand.

 

[WorldTraveler]

so bro, have you and your little bud in MIA accepted that you just might not have all of the answers to the questions that fill your minds, union or not?

 

[Kev3188]

Are you talking to me?

How 'bout you just answer the question?

Again: What source did you use to determine that the average number of "takers" for early outs at DL is ~2k?

 

[WorldTraveler]

the board shows you read the PM I sent you.

for the rest of the world, the answer is a combination of non-public information - some of which DL internal users might be able to access - and some of which might have been published.

and rather than get all wrapped up in trying to find that datapoint, its only purpose is to try to provide some number that gives an approximation for the average seniority of one FA group vs the other. More appropriately, average is not the right term but rather other statistical measurements that would show the distribution of how highly paid FAs are at each point on the scale.

I assert that DL has a number of junior FAs because of DL's heavy growth over the past few years. The early out element is part of it but is only part of the equation, Kev.

If you step on DL planes, you know that there are a lot of younger FAs; I am sure the same thing has happened at other airlines as well.

Bottom line is that 700's statistic about FA costs/ASM is meaningless without knowing where FAs fall on the pay scale.
And it also doesn't change the point which some here don't want to accept which is that DL FAs will still have a higher compensation package using comparable points on the pay scale because DL's profit sharing is a huge part of the compensation formula which AA and the APFA chose to leave out and which AA/APFA grossly underestimated via the statistic they provided in their own press release.

 

[Kev3188]

the board shows you read the PM I sent you.

The board also shows that I asked you not to, and you went ahead and did it anyway.

It was also a total non-answer.

Would you like to walk back the declarative statement you made asserting an average of 2k early out "takers" per year? I don't know if it's true or not. What I do know is that I'd like to see where the data was culled from so I can find out. If it's internal, point me in the right direction.

 

and rather than get all wrapped up in trying to find that datapoint...

Wait, what? Are you no longer a champion of data-driven arguments?

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, Kev, the data point you are looking for doesn't answer the question you are looking for.

I'm sorry if I don't refresh the page every minute which is what it would have taken to see your answer.

If you are really interested in the answer, then you should care less how you get it.


but the answer is the same as I said before, Kevin. you don't and won't have the information to come up with the conclusion you are trying to make.

Given that you have had and still have a whole lot of other data to show why DL people have repeatedly chosen to not pursue further unionization and have repeatedly ignored that, I'm not sure why one little datapoint is going to change anything now.