Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WeAAsles]

They do post there own names on that page but why in the world would I provide those names to you. Are you really serious? And those were only a very small amount of the negative comments made there. Tons more than that.

If you think the silence that goes on on this site is any indication of those people's dissatisfaction, you're seriously lost in the woods.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't doubt there are people that are dissatisfied.

Arguing that someone doesn't want profit sharing because they haven't figured out how taxes on lump sum payments work is just plain ridiculous.

And it still doesn't change that all of the supposed dissatisfaction in the world won't force rational DL people from taking a pay cut in order to join a union.

we know there are enough irrational union supporters who would slip their own neck in order to cut off a couple whiskers but they aren't rational or anywhere close to the norm.

 

[700UW]

Keep touting the profit sharing, as Doug gave the APFA $61 million to cover profit sharing. So what happens during the next down turn in the industry and there are no profits to share?

 

[WorldTraveler]

keep touting the profit sharing that the APFA managed to get while excluding the fact that DL FAs' share of the profit sharing just in 2013 was at least several times that amount and for this year could be more than $250M

AA managed to convince the APFA that they needed more language speakers and the APFA thru up its hands and gave up on that issue; AA obviously managed to wring the crew rests seats away from AA FAs so it is hardly a surprise that AA sold the APFA a song and dance that "DL won't really be that profitable so your contract shouldn't include much profit sharing."

DL FAs will still walk away with far greater pay increases - and they will be rested when they do their second service and arrive at their int'l destinations too. And DL provides a meal for them.

 

[700UW]

And yet once again you deflect and avoid the topic at hand.

 

[robbedagain]

And yet once again you deflect and avoid the topic at hand.

its typical of him when shown to be wrong  or wont willingly admit he is wrong...  some things will never change... 

 

[WorldTraveler]

And yet once again you deflect and avoid the topic at hand.

no, the deflecting has been from you for a solid week since DL trumped the APFA despite your incessant cheerleading for them.

DL FAs will come out better than their peers at AA and that is precisely the grassroots campaign is drying up under the intense heat of trying to demonstrate union value - and coming out way short and very brown.

 

[topDawg]

No, it’s not.

I’m not talking about regulations and rules.

I’m talking about capabilities.

If there aren’t things that you do that a PTer or RRer can also do, then your job should be busted down to RR status, if not outsourced.
wait......what? 
But I know full well, Kev, that you do lots of things that reflect your experience in the industry, including at DL, that aren’t done by RRs, and for which DL entrusts those tasks to you.
uhhh....
Again, a sorry attempt to highlight the fact that AA doesn’t have profit sharing and was beat by DL in the race to increase pay.

And we still can’t validate that ANY of those comments were actually made by DL employees. If they use their real name, it can be validated. I guarantee you without looking that the vast majority of these people aren’t..

Post a few names and I’ll check it out.

And yet DL had more ramp agents than NW at the time of the merger, right in line with every other dept.
huh? I don't remember seeing that sat anywhere. Kev is that true? ACS was larger but I don't remember DL having more below wing employees
DL still has its own people in more stations than either AA or UA and even if you look at just BW, the list to me looks like more than what AA/US has.
I think its a little early to call it for AA. If what 700 says is true that about US's SCOPE then I think its very possible that even a direct split between AA scope and US scope is going to end up with more below wing stations than DL. 
I also don't see them pulling a UA and pissing the ramp away.  


Again, I can assure you that DL has its own personnel in more cities than AA or UA.
Since Dawg wants to take the side of BW personnel, perhaps he’d like to post the cities where AA and UA have their own maintenance personnel compared to DL.

I don't know about United but AA has maintenance in
DFW*, MIA*, LAX*, ORD*, JFK*, LGA*, DCA*, BOS*, SFO*, AFW, TUL*, ATL, AUS, BDL, DEN, DTW, EWR, LAS, MCO, MIA, MSP, PHL, PHX, RDU, SAN, SAT, SEA, SJU, SJC, STL, TPA. 
AA Also has a large international network of line stations focused around Latin America. 
 
*Hangar Stations. 
(of course this isn't really fair as I don't have a list of US stations. 
 
Delta has line stations in 
ATL*, JFK, LGA, CVG*, SLC*, MSP*, MEM, DTW*, BOS*, LAX, BDL, BWI, DCA, CHS, DEN, EWR, FLL, LAS, MCO, MIA, PHL, PHX, SAV, SEA, SFO, HNL, OGG, PDX, SAN, MSY, BNA, MCI.
 
Then Delta has a larger network built around Europe (AMS, CDG, LHR, MAN, FRA, DUB, MUC, BRU, STR, MAD, SVO) and Asia (PEK, PVG, HKG, ICN, NRT, NGO, KIX, MNL, TPE, BKK, GUM)   
 
but overall AA is going to have more domestic stations and a larger line network. 

 

[topDawg]

no, the deflecting has been from you for a solid week since DL trumped the APFA despite your incessant cheerleading for them.

DL FAs will come out better than their peers at AA and that is precisely the grassroots campaign is drying up under the intense heat of trying to demonstrate union value - and coming out way short and very brown.

Have you seen the TA? Have you compared the contract to the Delta rules and regs? 
 
If your answer is no, again, can you quit posting this? you have no earthly idea who comes out better. I know the model for your type is OMG UNION DUES and PROFIT SHARING!!!!!!! 
but as you have been told that is not all that goes into the contract. 
 
Looking over the APFA thread on the AA side, your a fool if you don't think they drastically bettered themselves with that TA. Now if Delta and American were on even footing I would probably no vote it, but they aren't. AA's FAs are just coming out of BK and to see those kinds of gains in the first contract after (and to not really take any losses) is nothing short of amazing. If the APA and (hopefully) AMFA do as well as the APFA did then its highly likely AA will be one of the best airlines to work for. 
 
and just think of how good contract number two could be. 
 
Now we get a chance to see Delta' employee groups answer in......ah ****. They don't have a say so. They just get to hope Delta wants to be nice to them. 
 

Keep touting the profit sharing, as Doug gave the APFA $61 million to cover profit sharing. So what happens during the next down turn in the industry and there are no profits to share?

Ah well if its at Delta who's employees don't have an kind of say in the matter they lose the profit sharing and take a pay cut. 
 
Question for all you union guys, and I'm asking on behalf of WT who doesn't grasp how contracts work, what happens when you have a contract with pay raises in them but the company stops making money? Do they just take those raises away? Force you to take a pay cut? 
 
Take notes WT. 

 

[commavia]

Have you seen the TA? Have you compared the contract to the Delta rules and regs? 
 
If your answer is no, again, can you quit posting this? you have no earthly idea who comes out better. I know the model for your type is OMG UNION DUES and PROFIT SHARING!!!!!!! 
but as you have been told that is not all that goes into the contract. 
 
Looking over the APFA thread on the AA side, your a fool if you don't think they drastically bettered themselves with that TA. Now if Delta and American were on even footing I would probably no vote it, but they aren't. AA's FAs are just coming out of BK and to see those kinds of gains in the first contract after (and to not really take any losses) is nothing short of amazing. If the APA and (hopefully) AMFA do as well as the APFA did then its highly likely AA will be one of the best airlines to work for. 

 
Not to mention that, regardless of the specific "puts and takes" between this AA TA and what Delta flight attendants make, classic economic theory would tell us that - in general, overall - Delta's flight attendants should, in fact, make some amount more than their counterparts at AA based on the basic, bedrock principle of risk and reward.
 
Arguably, Delta's flight attendants are "rewarded" (compensated) commensurate with the additional "risk" they assume compared with AA flight attendants because, of course, Delta's flight attendants are at-will employees and thus exposed to the whims of Delta management, and all that entails, such that they can essentially have their relationship with their employer altered, up to and including termination/lay off, at any time (subject to law, of course).  AA's flight attendants have the protection of a legally-enforceable collective bargaining contract, and the extra layer of their collective bargaining agent to advocate for them, which clearly reduces their risk.
 
So in that context, it's only natural that - to some negotiable extent - Delta's flight attendants should make more money.  It's the APFA's job to quantify that risk/reward tradeoff as favorably for APFA members as possible.

 

[robbedagain]

should the company say no pay raise despite the contract saying raises  grievance gets filed  and quick trip to arbitration.     exception would be ch 11

 

[topDawg]

 
Not to mention that, regardless of the specific "puts and takes" between this AA TA and what Delta flight attendants make, classic economic theory would tell us that - in general, overall - Delta's flight attendants should, in fact, make some amount more than their counterparts at AA based on the basic, bedrock principle of risk and reward.
 
Arguably, Delta's flight attendants are "rewarded" (compensated) commensurate with the additional "risk" they assume compared with AA flight attendants because, of course, Delta's flight attendants are at-will employees and thus exposed to the whims of Delta management, and all that entails, such that they can essentially have their relationship with their employer altered, up to and including termination/lay off, at any time (subject to law, of course).  AA's flight attendants have the protection of a legally-enforceable collective bargaining contract, and the extra layer of their collective bargaining agent to advocate for them, which clearly reduces their risk.
 
So in that context, it's only natural that - to some negotiable extent - Delta's flight attendants should make more money.  It's the APFA's job to quantify that risk/reward tradeoff as favorably for APFA members as possible.

I'm not sure about that. I think the bigger factor here is that this is a after BK contract. Rome wont be built in a day, but unlike most counterparts at other airlines they are not really giving anything up and getting a very good TA. It is very possible that when the next contract comes up the pass Delta's FAs.
 
 
 

should the company say no pay raise despite the contract saying raises  grievance gets filed  and quick trip to arbitration.     exception would be ch 11

yeah doesn't work that way for DL. Just do what they want. 

 

[Kev3188]

huh? I don't remember seeing that sat anywhere. Kev is that true? ACS was larger but I don't remember DL having more below wing employees

IIRC, both sides were relatively similarly-sized (certainly as compared to AW)... ATL is such an outlier size-wise that any comparison will be skewed, though.

Now we get a chance to see Delta' employee groups answer in......ah ####. They don't have a say so. They just get to hope Delta wants to be nice to them.

Truth.
 


 

yeah doesn't work that way for DL. Just do what they want.

Real talk!

 

[WorldTraveler]

except, commavia, DL has managed to run a far more stable and profitable business than any other airline = and Wall St. has rewarded DL with the highest market cap and far more investor confidence than AA.

The simple fact is that DL employees are being better compensated because they work for a MORE successful company that isn't taking away crew rest seats in order to give them profit sharing.

And all of this glee that DL is being kicked out of DAL avoids the reality which WILL be shown that the opening of DAL will have a far larger effect on AA at DFW than anyone here has been willing to admit.

AA is living in the honeymoon phase of the merger and they are going to wake up in a couple weeks and realize that there are wolves at the door and their bed partners is flat out ugly.


DL employees succeed and will continue to do so based on strong and improving fundamentals in the business - and because DL mgmt. is quite frankly charting a smarter path to the success of all at DL.

 

[Kev3188]

And all of this glee that DL is being kicked out of DAL avoids the reality which WILL be shown that the opening of DAL will have a far larger effect on AA at DFW than anyone here has been willing to admit.

 

Wrong thread.

That's being discussed here: http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57698-city-of-dallas-tells-delta-it-can-no-longer-fly-out-of-love-field/