Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[topDawg]

we are comparing post BK to post BK now. AA is out and finished.

when AA starts adding stations back, you can start a topic to show how they have reversed the tide.

we DO know how 1113 works. DOT data shows that DL cut a smaller percentage of employees and DL employee payroll was cut less than for UA, US, and NW.

I'd like to see all of that maintenance work brought back inhouse but DL simply cannot do it with the facilities it has.... and given that AA went down the same path of cutting maintenance facilities, there isn't a carrier in the industry that is prepared to do anywhere close to 100% of its work inhouse.

Who is this WE ####?
 
I said YOU have no clue what YOU are talking about. YOU do not understand contracts, 1113 or the RLA. YOU don't. no WE here. 
 
Southwind might post things I don't agree with, but he generally post facts. You don't. 
 
 
and no, we are comparing post BK pre merger companies to each other. Without the Northwest IAM Delta wouldn't have the ramp stations they do now. Plain and simple. 
 

Have been there and done that! And who knows, may happen again....it's called life and no, I have definitely not spent my entire aircraft career at DL, so I DO know what life is like outside of DL and through all of that I NEVER felt like someone or some company owed me!

And BTW, if DL brought back in all the outsourced work, they'd need a helluva lot more hanger space!

I don't believe I said the company owed anyone anything.
but you are foolish if you think people aren't taking RR jobs or hell MUE or helper jobs in hope to grow. That was the main point of those jobs now they are abused as another way to outsource. 
 
and no kidding. So how about Delta stops speeding millions on hangar space in Mexico and do it in the US? I'm sure you thought that was a great idea too. 
 

I TOTALLY GET the influence and power of money.

There have been PAID IAM organizers in the DL FA IAM campaign.

There are a few sprigs of grass in the middle of a huge patch of weeds. grassroots, heck no.

I'll throw out the truth - which is exactly what you don't want to hear, especially when it validates that if this campaign was as grassroots as you claim it is, DL employees would not have voted the IAM off of DL property multiple times during the DL-NW merger representation process.

As i said you clearly have no idea how unions or union drives work. 
 
Employees contract the union. Then at that point the union is able to help just like the company is able to spend millions on fighting the unions. 
 
but it always starts with employees. (and no union is going to just talk to 1 or 2 people. Its generally a large number, but not 51%)
 
 
I can tell you this because I have personally seen and watched union drives with family members for other companies. 
 

I am FOR workers being able to make the right choice on their own.

 

So no union help but Delta spending millions is okay? 
 
you are FOR kissing Delta ass. What is good for Delta, NOT ITS EMPLOYEES, is ALL you care about. Period
 

Who says its "nonsense?"

You stating that does not make it fact.

in WTs mind yes its does. Everything he says is fact. Everything. 

 

[700UW]

Great post Dawg!

 

[robbedagain]

Excellent post dawg.

 

[WorldTraveler]

not really but dawg had to jump in anyway.

of course the employees contact a union who throws tons of money into the campaign.

Let's just be fair that the employees contacted the employer FIRST and the employer has the right to throw their money into the campaign as well.

No one here, certainly not me, ever denied that the company spends its own money in the representation campaign and also hires high powered legal firms to figure out how to win.

but somehow you and others want to believe it is ok for the IAM to spend money that didn't come from DL employees - employees at other manufacturing companies for instance - and yet you think DL should not be able to spend money.

It isn't a grassroots campaign at all. I know it is hard but just be honest.

Let's just not call it a grassroots campaign because there is big money going after even bigger money on both sides.

As for who takes what jobs, tell me how DL has managed to justify hiring hundreds of mechanics in order to support MRO work which other airlines don't want to do? It wasn't any union at another airline that showed DL the way.

Again, for those who hold WN as the great standard for the industry, their business model from the beginning involved outsourcing the vast majority of their maintenance operation.

It isn't rocket science to figure out that if you outsource some of the lowest value work, you can have fewer but higher paid workers. That is exactly the WN difference. You seem to want to throw DL under the bus for outsourcing low value airframe overhauls despite the fact that WN has built its business around huge amounts of outsourcing.

If you were actually logical in what you wrote, you could be believed but you want to hold a standard for DL that you don't expect other airlines to hold. We get it.

 

[700UW]

Air frame overhaul is the most expensive part of maintenance.

Once again you have no clue of what you talk about.

And you are unreal if you think it isn't grassroots, you have no clue on how this and other organizing campaigns work.

And keep trying to distract the real message, but it won't work.

What will be your next red herring?

 

[700UW]

 

[700UW]

 

[700UW]

 

[WorldTraveler]

all of which are true... but it still doesn't deal with the fact that DL employees without union have fared better than their peers at other airlines.

all of the generalities in the world don't change the specifics which speak to the specific situations.

Air frame overhaul is the most expensive part of maintenance.

Once again you have no clue of what you talk about.

And you are unreal if you think it isn't grassroots, you have no clue on how this and other organizing campaigns work.

And keep trying to distract the real message, but it won't work.

What will be your next red herring?

uh, I think the real message... at least I hope it is... is what is in the best interest of DL employees.

on that note, I am ALL ABOUT making sure that all of the facts are put on the table.


The only distraction comes from trying to exclude profit sharing and real protections that DL people have been proven in practice to have even if it isn't codified in a CBA.

Is there opportunity to improve EVERY job? of course there is.

but DL employees have repeatedly proven that they are able to figure out what is in their best interests.

as for the cost of maintenance, heavy airframe maintenance is the most labor and facility intensive part of maintenance and the part that can be most easily outsourced.

again, why does ire against airframe overhauls not extend to other airlines such as WN that have heavily built their business models around outsourced maintenance including airframe overhauls?

and as much as you want to think that providing job protections for a portion of work that can be easily outsourced while leaving more valuable work to be outsourced -which is what the IAM did with US - only leaves mgmt. free to give away hire value work which has the greatest potential to generate MRO revenues.

I don't expect you or dawg to ever manage to include MRO revenues brought into DL as part of the calculation of outsourcing costs but DL has chosen a model that keeps the highest value work inhouse - engines and components especially - and use that work as the basis for insourcing additional work. US legacy airlines are not going to succeed at insourcing airframe overhauls if that is the only work that a CBA has saved. if a carrier protects engine and component work and insources for it, that airline, in this case Delta, is able to secure more jobs than if it used the same percentages of outsourcing and insourcing as its peers.

 

[700UW]

A new red herring.

 

[700UW]

From Kip:

 

I wanted to clarify a couple of things. First, it is not any fun to get fired by your employer, even if it is an unjust firing. But over the past 9 months my coworkers, friends and the labor movement have been enormously supportive. The causes that I have put large amounts of time into - winning a union at Delta and winning a $15/hour minimum wage for MSP, MPLS and St. Paul - have made real progress. All this has reaffirmed my belief that workers can change the world.
 
Second, I am retiring from Delta, but I am not heading off into the sunset. I plan to continue the fight for $15 and plan to continue with union organizing. Please remember, I am retiring. I am not dead. We will get a union on the ramp and a union contract. And when I die, you can try to pry that contract from my hands.
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

good fiery words but there won't be a contract that applies to him if he is retiring... unless of course I am a whole lot more "in" at DL than a lot of people want to believe.

and a retirement is exactly what I expected they would offer... considering that he is probably older and has more service than some that have been given retirement by DL.

 

[topDawg]

not really but dawg had to jump in anyway.

I know you would rather everyone do as you say and believe as you say but it doesn't work that way.

I was a loud voice when you and your boys tried to kill the company and i will keep speaking out about it.

 

but somehow you and others want to believe it is ok for the IAM to spend money that didn't come from DL employees - employees at other manufacturing companies for instance - and yet you think DL should not be able to spend money.

two things
1) i don't really care if Delta throws money to keep unions out. I personally think they should throw more money at the employees and less at bus adds and such, but its really whatever. The general thought is if you pay your employees, treat them right, you won't have to toss millions at them every few years to keep the unions out. Delta use to do things that way. Then your boys took over and the play book went to "do JUST enough". 
 
2) 700 can comment on how the IAM works, but the union drive(s) I have worked with are all generally funded by donations. In other words they don't come from the other locals but come from the people who want the union. (note meetings and such with national employees might come out of the national budget) 
 

It isn't a grassroots campaign at all. I know it is hard but just be honest.

yes it is. Again, painfully clear you don't know what you are talking about.

 

As for who takes what jobs, tell me how DL has managed to justify hiring hundreds of mechanics in order to support MRO work which other airlines don't want to do? It wasn't any union at another airline that showed DL the way.

can you point, with proof, to what jobs are around due to MRO? Considering Delta doesn't do anything that is "just" MRO, Delta simply uses the MRO side to support the Delta side.
But if you can prove me wrong, do it.
 

Again, for those who hold WN as the great standard for the industry, their business model from the beginning involved outsourcing the vast majority of their maintenance operation.

don't believe I said anything about other airlines. Once again YOU are the one bringing OALs into this. not me.
 

It isn't rocket science to figure out that if you outsource some of the lowest value work, you can have fewer but higher paid workers. That is exactly the WN difference. You seem to want to throw DL under the bus for outsourcing low value airframe overhauls despite the fact that WN has built its business around huge amounts of outsourcing.

Airframe work isn't "low value"
Its generally lower margins but that doesn't mean it isn't profitable. Plenty of airlines along with some of the "better" MROs do airframe work and it is quite profitable for them.

I also find it funny how you constantly defend the TechOps Mexico operation but then turn around and say MY work is low value.

once again it is very clear you don't know what you are talking about. TechOps America has done(does) plenty of heavier work for other airlines. They just don't do it on Delta metal because it isn't the cute thing to do in wall streets eyes.
 

If you were actually logical in what you wrote, you could be believed but you want to hold a standard for DL that you don't expect other airlines to hold. We get it.

Of course I don't hold AA, UA, WN, NK, HA, LH, AF, EK, CZ etc etc etc to ANY standards. I don't give a rats ass what they do. I care about Delta because its MY JOB. Its MY INCOME. Delta has a direct effect on ME. What American does doesn't mean ****.

the only reason I care about OALs is because the bean counters like YOU constantly use that as a reason to BRING US DOWN. "Oh well AA does......... Oh well United does........."
But when the good is posted, ie AAs scope, WNs pay etc. etc. then its "not fair"

In other words, you anti-labor people search and search for reasons to bring us down. I know, I took management classes.

 

[topDawg]

Great post Dawg!

 
 

Excellent post dawg.

thanks guys 
 

Air frame overhaul is the most expensive part of maintenance.

Once again you have no clue of what you talk about.

And you are unreal if you think it isn't grassroots, you have no clue on how this and other organizing campaigns work.

And keep trying to distract the real message, but it won't work.

What will be your next red herring?

airframe overhauls (and some of the heavier c-checks i would bet) cost more(or bring in more revenue) 
but margins are lower than engines. However, 7% margins are still 7% profit. It might not be as high as engines, but profitable. 
Plenty of MROs make Airframe the bread and butter. 
 

as for the cost of maintenance, heavy airframe maintenance is the most labor and facility intensive part of maintenance and the part that can be most easily outsourced.

not true. engine/component equipment/facilities cost much more than hangars. Shops/test cells have all kinds of EPA regs to deal with, where hangars can generally be done for cheap.

*note it does depend where, obviously a 10 bay hangar at JFK would cost a s**t ton, but not so much in say SLC or ATL

Delta is spending, IIRC, double on the new test cell/engine shop(that is using an existing building) compared to the 9 or 10 bay hangar in Mexico.

again, why does ire against airframe overhauls not extend to other airlines such as WN that have heavily built their business models around outsourced maintenance including airframe overhauls?

because we are talking about Delta.

I'd love to see WN do more work in-house. I constantly post on the AA forum telling them not to sell scope. Only person dragging other airlines in this is you though.

its a cover up for you being
1) anti-labor
2) not knowing what you are talking about.

and as much as you want to think that providing job protections for a portion of work that can be easily outsourced while leaving more valuable work to be outsourced -which is what the IAM did with US - only leaves mgmt. free to give away hire value work which has the greatest potential to generate MRO revenues.

whats US got to do with it?

US isn't comparable to Delta. US has always outsourced a good bit of MX, DL has been under 5% before.

AA, who does more work in-house than DL, is more comparable.

I don't expect you or dawg to ever manage to include MRO revenues brought into DL as part of the calculation of outsourcing costs but DL has chosen a model that keeps the highest value work inhouse - engines and components especially - and use that work as the basis for insourcing additional work. US legacy airlines are not going to succeed at insourcing airframe overhauls if that is the only work that a CBA has saved. if a carrier protects engine and component work and insources for it, that airline, in this case Delta, is able to secure more jobs than if it used the same percentages of outsourcing and insourcing as its peers.

Again you are proving you don't understand the word value.
second No, when we discuss outsourcing %, I don't generally run out and try to find a stat that makes Delta look awesome and is a complete lie. Again, you don't care about labor, just making mother D look good.

Fact is, Delta outsources to much DELTA work. The MRO work is great, but as i have said before they would probably have airlines lined up for DTO if Delta did some of the things they send to vendors in house.

I know for a fact base MX struggles on getting work because Delta doesn't do the work they are offering in-house. UPS winglets for example was a cash cow, but most airlines don't send Delta winglet work because they sent the majority out of house.

In other words, if Delta doesn't believe it can do its own mod, overhaul, check whatever in-house, why in the hell would I send my work to them to do?

 

[700UW]

Another great post dawg.

And in regard to US the IAM didn't allow outsourcing like the company does now, it took two chapter 11 filings and a contract abrogation for it to happen.

They tried to farm out 10 planes after the first bankruptcy only to lose the arbitration case as our CBA didn't permit it.

After our CBA was abrogated did they gain the right to outsource in the 2008 transition agreement the IAM was able to gain scope back where 50% of billable hmv hours must be done in-house and through both bankruptcies the IAM held onto all line maintenance, U.S. can't farm that out.

But since when does WT let the facts and truth get in the way of his misinformed postings?