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Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

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No he clearly doesnt but his hubris shows no bounds.
 
Ironic people like you, myself and Kevin prove him wrong all the time and he still runs with his misinformation, like no one is going to notice it.  No matter how many times he posts it, it doesnt make it the truth.
 
I guess you all have decided to disregard Kevin's request that this topic remain about FAs and ACS....at least you are consistent in not showing him respect just like you do for me.


no, what I get is that you and dawg want to define your own set of rules - LCCs aren't the same as legacies, AA and US aren't merged -anything to come up with a way to argue that DL is the villain that is mistreating its employees but in no way are you willing to accept responsibility for the fact that those carriers really do, legitimately not measuring up to what DL is doing in maintenance.

yes, AA could have built a hangar in the US to do overhauls on its 777s which it is now sending to Asia, right? and the merger has nothing to do with AA's decision?

or what reason are you going to come up with to excuse their outsourcing?

and WN's level of outsourcing might eventually be accurately reflected in DOT data but for 2014 it is 58% which is within a couple percent of what it has run for years... and still far higher than DL.

they just happen to have built a business model that has include over 60% outsourcing for the 20 years of DOT data that is available.

so, no, the rules aren't different. WN flies the same Boeing jets that DL flies. They use the same gates at the same airports.

and AA and US are just as much the same company unless you would like to reset DL's outsourcing levels to what they were before the NW merger when it jumped so dramatically.

and in your Teflon coated attempts at justifying why DL should be held to a standard that you won't hold anyone else to, you failed to include UA, whose maintenance is represented by unions and which has a level of outsourcing that is only a few percent lower than US.
 
AA and US' maintenance program are not combined.
 
AA still overhauls PMAA planes and US overhauls PMUS planes.
 
And you replied so you disrespected Kevin, does your hypocrisy know any bounds?
 
I replied because you and dawg don't and won't stop.

if you and dawg want to talk about maintenance, start another thread.

and it is simply a cop out to argue that AA and US should be treated separately because they are still not integrated.

Based on what happened at US and HP, it will take years for all workgroups to be under a single contract for each workgroup. And until then the track record for at least some workgroups is vastly inferior to what DL employees have. The merger actually brings some statistics for the combined carrier AA/US up because AA was providing better protections for some workgroups than US was.
 
Wrong every group at HP/US didn't take years except the pilots , more misinformation from you.
 
tell us the date of the legal merger and the date when each workgroup finally had an integrated CBA.
 
I don't have to tell you anything, the groups were merged in about two years, when each got a transition agreement.

They had to go through the process to determine representation, etc...

CWA integrated in less than one year, The IAM was in 2008, as the ramp had to determine TWU or IAM, and maintenance was between the IBT and IAM, and the IAM prevailed in both.

If you want the dates you are quite capable of finding them.
 
in about two years is indeed "years after" the merger, exactly as I noted.

now, can you tell me the date the AA/US merger legally closed, the workgroups that do not have a JCBA, and the chances of that happening in the next few months?

I can tell... the chances that AA will have a merged workforce in all major workgroups 2 years after the legal merger are ZERO.

You and dawg cannot choose to keep AA and US separate because either labor or management can't figure out what to do to get the groups merged or because it is advantageous to one party or the other to keep it that way.

In the meantime, the bills are paid out of the same accounts and AA/US just like UA/CO is one airline even if labor integration hasn't happened.

in contrast DL finished the process quickly - as quickly as labor union objections to the representation votes - and DL has been a unified airline for years... just as WN is now as well.

trying to keep two airlines separate to avoid acknowledging that AA/US has not and will achieve the huge job protection breakthroughs that you want to believe they will achieve but have not and won't doesn't change the reality that DL has done a better job of keeping work inhouse combined with bringing work to DL from other airlines after the merger than either AA or UA.
 
so its ok if you can be biased towards DL everything positive  but its not ok for dawg, or 700 or anyone else  to be biased  ok got it now 
 
It's ok for anyone to be biased... just admit the bias where it exists but also acknowledge facts where they supersede bias.
 
WorldTraveler said:
I guess you all have decided to disregard Kevin's request that this topic remain about FAs and ACS....at least you are consistent in not showing him respect just like you do for me.
Sorry kev, but i can't leave it alone when people post stuff that is completely and totally wrong.

WorldTraveler said:
no, what I get is that you and dawg want to define your own set of rules - LCCs aren't the same as legacies,
because they aren't. I don't expect an airline like WN to go out and build a maintenance base like AA/UA/DL have over night. WN has been slowly but surely adding more and more work in-house however.


WorldTraveler said:
AA and US aren't merged -anything to come up with a way to argue that DL is the villain that is mistreating its employees but in no way are you willing to accept responsibility for the fact that those carriers really do, legitimately not measuring up to what DL is doing in maintenance.
I'm not acting like anyone is a villain. AA and US haven't combined yet. You are hiding under the US contract but you are going to look like a gosh damn fool if AA takes the LAA scope, which means more work in-house than Delta does.

WorldTraveler said:
yes, AA could have built a hangar in the US to do overhauls on its 777s which it is now sending to Asia, right? and the merger has nothing to do with AA's decision?
the merger didn't have anything to do with that choice. Of course per the AA site, AA is bringing some of the 777 work back in-house, like they, AFAIK, did with the 757/767 fleets.
Having said that it sucks that AA sent that work out, but even with that, even with BK, they still do the majority of their work in-house.

WorldTraveler said:
or what reason are you going to come up with to excuse their outsourcing?
I don't excuse it at all.

WorldTraveler said:
and WN's level of outsourcing might eventually be accurately reflected in DOT data but for 2014 it is 58% which is within a couple percent of what it has run for years... and still far higher than DL.
I don't believe i have said any different. You asked for unions getting more work done in-house and I gave you two examples. WN went from zero overhauls in-house to 3-4 or lines. US went from unlimited outsourcing to 50% of heavies, some back shops and line work in-house.

WorldTraveler said:
they just happen to have built a business model that has include over 60% outsourcing for the 20 years of DOT data that is available.

so, no, the rules aren't different. WN flies the same Boeing jets that DL flies. They use the same gates at the same airports.
not a single thing you said has to do with maintenance. Nothing.

WorldTraveler said:
and AA and US are just as much the same company unless you would like to reset DL's outsourcing levels to what they were before the NW merger when it jumped so dramatically.
uh no. DL/NW are integrated. They have the same (lack of) scope clause. Seniority lists are done, elections are done etc. etc.

AA/US are not even in the same ball park. Talk to me when US/AA have a combined scope. Talk to me when AA/US have a combination plan.

WorldTraveler said:
and in your Teflon coated attempts at justifying why DL should be held to a standard that you won't hold anyone else to, you failed to include UA, whose maintenance is represented by unions and which has a level of outsourcing that is only a few percent lower than US.
I didn't include UA because unlike you i am not out to make everyone else look bad. IMHO i don't give a damn about United. I don't give a damn about American.

This all started by you asking if we would take a pay cut to bring work in. Yes I would take the very small pay cut that would cover bringing the bankruptcy work back in-house. The profit sharing from extra MRO contracts and all the overtime that would come from it would more than make up for small pay cut.

Then you went on a witch hunt and once again proved you don't have a clue about this issue. Good work.
 
WorldTraveler said:
in about two years is indeed "years after" the merger, exactly as I noted.

now, can you tell me the date the AA/US merger legally closed, the workgroups that do not have a JCBA, and the chances of that happening in the next few months?
no one can answer that. not you not me not 700.

WorldTraveler said:
I can tell... the chances that AA will have a merged workforce in all major workgroups 2 years after the legal merger are ZERO.
really so you have been to the Union/AA meetings?

WorldTraveler said:
You and dawg cannot choose to keep AA and US separate because either labor or management can't figure out what to do to get the groups merged or because it is advantageous to one party or the other to keep it that way.
yes when two work groups are under different contracts that spell out outsourcing I can keep them separate.
You would do the same if it was the other way around.
You combine US/AA simply because it proved your stupid logic. It isn't remotely close to true though.

WorldTraveler said:
In the meantime, the bills are paid out of the same accounts and AA/US just like UA/CO is one airline even if labor integration hasn't happened.
bean counter who doesn't understand CONTRACTS
very clear. Stop talking dude. You are so far in over your head at this point it is sad.

WorldTraveler said:
in contrast DL finished the process quickly - as quickly as labor union objections to the representation votes - and DL has been a unified airline for years... just as WN is now as well.
Delta didn't "finish quickly"
It took a very long time to get all the single systems/items worked out for TechOps. I think the final thing was finished less than 6 months ago.
having said that, when you buy a carrier who has ~1,000 mechanics and merger them with a non-union carrier with 10,000 mechanics and you impose whatever you want to impose it doesn't take that long to get labor done. DL/NW aren't comparable to AA/US on the mechanic issue because Delta didn't have to do deal with getting a JCBA like AA does. (and basically waiting for the two unions to figure out how to handle things)

Simple fact is, AA could end up with a scope clause that forces them to do less outsourcing than Delta. Since we don't know where the union/company is going to go, and they DON"T HAVE A SINGLE CONTRACT, they LEGALLY are not combined. simple as that. Call the DOL if you have a problem with it.

WorldTraveler said:
trying to keep two airlines separate to avoid acknowledging that AA/US has not and will achieve the huge job protection breakthroughs that you want to believe they will achieve but have not and won't doesn't change the reality that DL has done a better job of keeping work inhouse combined with bringing work to DL from other airlines after the merger than either AA or UA.
please prove AA will send more combined work out once they have a JCBA please. (hint you can't, you are talking from your butt again)



I think i hope, at this point, for 35% outsourcing max at AA now more so you look stupid and wrong, than the betterment of my craft.
 
all you want to do is selectively look at the world to make ONLY DL bad and exclude any comparison that would adequately show that DL has done as good of a job or better at protecting jobs and bringing in work to DL employees than any other carrier.

of course you don't want to include UA and of course you want to argue that WN is "special" because they both outsource far more than DL - in maintenance DAWG. yes maintenance.

and of course you want to hold onto the hope that AA will bring work back inhouse even though based on DOT data which AA itself provided, its outsourcing budget FOR MAINTENANCE, DAWG, increased in 2014 after the merger was legally complete and while AA was reporting on its own certificate.

Same thing happened in 2014 for US.

but those are actual facts that don't quite support the narrative that carriers with CBAs are actually increasing their outsourcing budgets and they aren't bringing in replacement MRO work.

those are facts, dawg.
 
WorldTraveler said:
If this is a grassroot campaign, why are 10 out of the 16 posts on this thread posted by a non-DL employee?and, Kev, tell me what parts of the safety requirements that are cited are objectionable and cannot be followed? seat belts, rails up when walking on belt loaders....?The "punishment" should be inconsequential if safety is followed.In some parts of the world, you lose your driver's license for a couple infractions that Americans are accustomed to just paying a fine for. The result of the punishment is to force people to follow the law.Suppose that part of the reason DL is "cracking down" is because what DL expects has been PROVEN to reduce injuries?since this is a grassroots effort, I want to read a response SOLELY from an active DL ramp employee. There are 10K of them so we don't need non-DL employees weighing in on way DL's requirements are onerous.If the rules don't allow a phone out, use a camera that is not a phone. I don't see too many people talking on or to a camera.
So wt stay off AA topics us AA employs are tired of your badmouthing AA
 
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