Heard there would be an announcement on AFW Friday.

[Birdman]

The company cannot just change things, they have to negotiate with the union, usually get about three month time frame.

We know how the compAAny negotiates, but tell us in your vast experience how far from their initial proposal they're required to wander to satisfy a judge?

 

[700UW]

They have to negotiate in good faith.

 

[strikeforce]

With the TWU, I would not be so sure that your A&P will protect you. You could find other Tilte I mechanics bumping A&P's out to the line..... or other than Title I causing Churn.

well, you just come on up here and bump US out there Buckaroo!!

 

[Buck]

well, you just come on up here and bump US out there Buckaroo!!

I am not going anywhere even if they close TUL. My point is that I believe that the TWU will not protect you just because you are licensed. You seem to believe that your tickets are your protection, when you should be concerned if the TWU is going to protect all the members. Churn for one, Churn for all......

 

[strikeforce]

I am not going anywhere even if they close TUL. My point is that I believe that the TWU will not protect you just because you are licensed. You seem to believe that your tickets are your protection, when you should be concerned if the TWU is going to protect all the members. Churn for one, Churn for all......

Although I know they won't.....but isn't it the job of the TWU to protect ALL members. WE do pay them to represent US.....the least they can do is show up for the fight, right Buck????

 

[TWU informer]

Strike just put this waste of sperm on ignore like I did. It is much better. Then you don't have to read the idiotic posts at all.

Again, was it your A&P license or the superior sperm of your father, that allowed you the wisdom and the knowledge to send a massive jet blast directly in the hangar at Tulsa that nearly killed your co-workers? Did that guy on the ladder ever return to work?

They should have fired your ass then instead of hiding you in a shop as Crew Chief that is now being threatened as outsource material.
Your track record indicates that your intelligence is lacking much more than you would have others on here to believe. AKA Idiot

 

[TWU informer]

They have to negotiate in good faith.

Were they not required to negotiate in good faith over the last three years leading up the BK filing too?

The fools that believe the Laws are in the union's favor humor me.

There are many laws written, and you think they are never violated. Whatever you say man, you have all the experience and using your knowledge of the laws you protected you and all your members in Bk......right.

Your experience and the outcome of that experience do not match your rhetoric.

They only HAVE to do what someone will MAKE them do.

 

[Birdman]

They have to negotiate in good faith.

They haven't in over a year, why should they start now?

 

[TWU informer]

They haven't in over a year, why should they start now?

I think some believe that when we post or visit this forum, we are supposed to ignore the facts and discuss the way it should be instead of the way it really is.

 

[eolesen]

They haven't in over a year, why should they start now?

Seems to be more than just a bit of denial over just how successful the negotiations were...

I'm not sure how you want to spin it, but you guys did have a TA, no?

It's also a fact that a majority of your negotiators were willing to live with the outcome of a vote.

It might have been a bad contract, but the process resulted in an agreement without use of arbitration or a PEB. If that's not good faith, I don't know what is.

Now, if you're alleging that your negotiators brought forward a TA knowing it would be voted down, then that's bad faith, but not on the part of the company...

 

[TWU informer]

Good-faith bargaining - Law and Legal Definition

Good-faith bargaining generally refers to the duty of the parties to meet and negotiate at reasonable times with willingness to reach agreement on matters within the scope of representation; however, neither party is required to make a concession or agree to any proposal.

Good faith bargaining requires employers and unions involved in collective bargaining to:
■ use their best endeavours to agree to an effective bargaining process
■ meet and consider and respond to proposals made by each other
■ respect the role of the other's representative by not seeking to bargain directly with those for whom the representative acts
■ not do anything to undermine the bargaining process or the authority of the other's

 

[Bob Owens]

Whatever you say man, you have all the experience and using your knowledge of the laws you protected you and all your members in Bk......right.

Your experience and the outcome of that experience do not match your rhetoric.

They only HAVE to do what someone will MAKE them do.

Not defending the IAM but despite having gone through BK his mechanics make more per hour than you, have more vacations, Holidays and sick time too. They are currently in mediation and atomatically get a 3% increase in July. You can say that had we signed the TA that might not be true but had we signed the TA it could be argued that their employer would have settled by now and typically our peers settle a little higher than whoever settled before them. UAL would have topped out at over $38/hr in 2004 had they not filed BK. Their agreement is higher than our TA was and they have more Vacation, Holidays, Sick time etc.

Sure they both lost a lot more workers especially in OH, but we set the stage for that back in 1995 with SRPs. By 2003 not only did we have OSMs in place, and the percentage remains constant so layoffs didnt affect the savings, but then we agreed to a 17.5% paycut, giving up a week of vacation, had our Holidays slashed (the line lost 100 hours of pay per year, the base lost 5 paid days off), more than half our sick time etc. There was no way that USAIR, UAL or even Delta could compete. They would have needed to take guys that were making mechanics pay and cut their pay in half.The only option they had to compete with AA, which was the biggest carrier at time, was to ship it out and try and save that way.

What many forget is that right up to the post 9-11 era some of AAs competitors still had mechanics doing pushbacks, deicing , shop work that we have OSMs doing and other jobs, that kept their mechanics numbers and costs pretty high and in a contraction there was no way to introduce the cost saving concessions we had been agreeing to since 1983. It took Bankruptcy for some of AAs competitors to get what AA got in 1983, never mind all the concessions since! AA's competitors had more mechanics per airplane than we did and nearly all of them were getting paid the same rate. Some competitors did not have things like line premiums or MRT which allowed AA to post a higher number for industry comparasions, this hid AAs competitive edge.

Postbankruptcy the spread reversed, competitors now had fewer mechanics per airplane as they outsourced work that AA got done cheaply, AA still has lower average hourly costs across the maintenance group. Competitors outsourced the work that we got done at low cost and then some, using the numbers off the BK website Q&A Ual has roughly 4.3 line mechanics and 5.6 Base mechanics per airplane (UAL fleet around 400 -did not include CAL fleet or mechanics) AA has roughly 5.6 line mechanics per airplane and 8.25 base mechanics per airplane (inclusive of all Title I). So yea we have more "mechanics" per airplane but the average cost per hour, due to OSMs, cleaners, parts washers and our lower wages and benefits, is less.

 

[TWU informer]

Not defending the IAM but despite having gone through BK his mechanics make more per hour than you, have more vacations, Holidays and sick time too. They are currently in mediation and atomatically get a 3% increase in July. You can say that had we signed the TA that might not be true but had we signed the TA it could be argued that their employer would have settled by now and typically our peers settle a little higher than whoever settled before them. UAL would have topped out at over $38/hr in 2004 had they not filed BK. Their agreement is higher than our TA was and they have more Vacation, Holidays, Sick time etc.

Sure they both lost a lot more workers especially in OH, but we set the stage for that back in 1995 with SRPs. By 2003 not only did we have OSMs in place, and the percentage remains constant so layoffs didnt affect the savings, but then we agreed to a 17.5% paycut, giving up a week of vacation, had our Holidays slashed (the line lost 100 hours of pay per year, the base lost 5 paid days off), more than half our sick time etc. There was no way that USAIR, UAL or even Delta could compete. They would have needed to take guys that were making mechanics pay and cut their pay in half.The only option they had to compete with AA, which was the biggest carrier at time, was to ship it out and try and save that way.

What many forget is that right up to the post 9-11 era some of AAs competitors still had mechanics doing pushbacks, deicing , shop work that we have OSMs doing and other jobs, that kept their mechanics numbers and costs pretty high and in a contraction there was no way to introduce the cost saving concessions we had been agreeing to since 1983. It took Bankruptcy for some of AAs competitors to get what AA got in 1983, never mind all the concessions since! AA's competitors had more mechanics per airplane than we did and nearly all of them were getting paid the same rate. Some competitors did not have things like line premiums or MRT which allowed AA to post a higher number for industry comparasions, this hid AAs competative edge.

Postbankruptcy the spread reversed, competitors now had fewer mechanics per airplane as competitors outsourced work that AA got done cheaply, AA still has lower average hourly costs across the group. Competitors outsourced the work that we got done at low cost and then some, using the numbers off the BK website Q&A Ual has roughly 4.3 line mechanics and 5.6 Base mechanics per airplane (UAL fleet around 400 -did not include CAL fleet or mechanics) AA has roughly 5.6 line mechanics per airplane and 8.25 base mechanics per airplane (inclusive of all Title I). So yea we have more "mechanics" per airplane but the average cost per hour, due to OSMs, cleaners, parts washers and our lower wages and benefits, is less.

You gonna get yours too.......Brother?

And call it success too......Brother?

And call it Unionism too....Brother?

Decimation of this profession goes back to de-regulation, not more recent history as you claim.

And like all the others, you are leading on the same bluff and isolation of power/strength, that has lead to the problems of the past.

Not one leader is working on industry wide unification, and a presentation of undeniable power.
Instead it is every man for himself, and comparing your losses to their losses.

Great Job!

 

[FWAAA]

Good-faith bargaining - Law and Legal Definition

Good-faith bargaining generally refers to the duty of the parties to meet and negotiate at reasonable times with willingness to reach agreement on matters within the scope of representation; however, neither party is required to make a concession or agree to any proposal.

Good faith bargaining requires employers and unions involved in collective bargaining to:
■ use their best endeavours to agree to an effective bargaining process
■ meet and consider and respond to proposals made by each other
■ respect the role of the other's representative by not seeking to bargain directly with those for whom the representative acts
■ not do anything to undermine the bargaining process or the authority of the other's

Excellent post. I've posted numerous times that the legal obligation to negotiate in good faith does not include any burden to agree to the other side's proposals.

And I'd agree with eolesen; the company and the worthless union's negotiators reached a TA, so there's no question that AA negotiated in good faith.

 

[TWU informer]

Excellent post. I've posted numerous times that the legal obligation to negotiate in good faith does not include any burden to agree to the other side's proposals.

And I'd agree with eolesen; the company and the worthless union's negotiators reached a TA, so there's no question that AA negotiated in good faith.

Instead our negotiators brought back an intolerable T/A. Then we had leaders spool up the propoganda machine to make everyone believe that we will get better, we just need to take a stand, demand a release from the NMB, and claim any threat of a Chapter 11 filing is just a bluff. That because there is some evidence of a shortage of AMT's we alone can take this battle on and win.

Then still pretend that we have some power to change that which is stacked against us after itis proven that Chapter 11 was real and not a bluff.

Even better yet, file legal objections in the Bankruptcy Docket that does not reference any case law but instead is nothing more than a Anti-Republican Presidential Candidate Statement. And call that "Fighting Like Hell" to protect the membership's interest.

Meanwhile attempt full blown character assassination on anyone that tries to explain that we are losing the battle due to failed representation, failed strategy, and that we will not get anything better until the strategy and direction change significantly. When that person claims that a NO Vote is futile and will lead to worse, make him the target of blame for the failure.

Yahoo!