if we cannot recommend it, we’re not sending it

[Hopeful]

I've said it before -- you guys need some professional negotiators at the table with your laymen. He who represents himself in court has a fool for an attorney, and I'm pretty certain it's not much different with negotiating a labor contract...

You got that right!

 

[FWAAA]

By good faith, I meant the TWU towards the mediator. Nothing else with respect to TA substance.
The reason "they changed their mind" was a simple one. The membership blasted them with only the TA highlights.

As for mechanic and related, somewhat a different story. There is more to "divide and conquer" with our group because of the numerous job functions, job classifications, base maintenance and line maintenance, etc.

More than any other work group......The mechanics are their own worst enemy!

I have to admit that I had not read your post #86 when I wrote #87 and thus was not responding to it.

But since you brought it up, good faith negotiations (IMO) require that the negotiating team have enough of a clue to agree only to TAs that they are willing to submit to a vote of the membership. Imagine if the tables were turned and the company agreed to a TA and then, weeks later, claimed that higher-up executives had deep-sixed the TA despite the company negotiators agreeing with the union negotiators.

Frequently, I read here that the company refuses to negotiate in good faith and the only evidence offered in support of those allegations is the refusal to offer large enough raises. That ain't a failure to negotiate in good faith. Reaching a TA and then refusing to submit it to a vote, wasting the time of the company negotiators and the mediator is much closer to bad faith negotiations.

 

[Hopeful]

I have to admit that I had not read your post #86 when I wrote #87 and thus was not responding to it.

But since you brought it up, good faith negotiations (IMO) require that the negotiating team have enough of a clue to agree only to TAs that they are willing to submit to a vote of the membership. Imagine if the tables were turned and the company agreed to a TA and then, weeks later, claimed that higher-up executives had deep-sixed the TA despite the company negotiators agreeing with the union negotiators.

Frequently, I read here that the company refuses to negotiate in good faith and the only evidence offered in support of those allegations is the refusal to offer large enough raises. That ain't a failure to negotiate in good faith. Reaching a TA and then refusing to submit it to a vote, wasting the time of the company negotiators and the mediator is much closer to bad faith negotiations.

I am not sure you understand what I posted. I simply meant that as far as the TWU is concerned, by just bringing a TA back to the membership, they are probably saying in more ways than one to the mediator...."Look, we sent it back the membership..if they turn it down, you should probably release us..we tried!"

And as far as your interpretation of good faith/bad faith negotiations, the company proved their bad faith positioning for two years by continually returning to the bargaining table dragging their feet and only responding to a single issue at a time. Even the mediator had lost patience with AA. And having offered only more concessions until the TA...which also contains more concessions with the exception of some sweeteners.

One thing i agree with you is that the TWU leadership/negotiating teams, are clueless as to what the membership wants. But they do what Little tells them to do so they can those cushy TWU International jobs.

Do you call giving up pensions for new hires BAD FAITH?
Eliminating retiree prefunding medical for 50 years and under BAD FAITH?
New classification mechanics at substantially lower wages at the bases BAD FAITH?
Basically agreeing to sell out new hires for a few bucks BAD FAITH?

Sounds to me the TWU agreed to nothing but GOOD FAITH by agreeing to this rag!

How about the company refusing TWO YEAR RETRO? Is that GOOD FAITH or just great negotiating?

 

[AANOTOK]

Frequently, I read here that the company refuses to negotiate in good faith and the only evidence offered in support of those allegations is the refusal to offer large enough raises. That ain't a failure to negotiate in good faith. Reaching a TA and then refusing to submit it to a vote, wasting the time of the company negotiators and the mediator is much closer to bad faith negotiations.

First of all, not sure where you get your info, either your misguided opinion or press releases put out by AA. But the lack of "large raises" is not what folks here say constitutes bad faith negotiations. Maybe a little more studying and reading on your part would be helpful.

Secondly FWAAA, when was the last time you were involved in airline negotiations. When was the last time you were able to sit in and listen how things were transpiring. It really is becoming somewhat laughable that posters like yourself have absolutely nothing to do with AA other than fly cheaply at our expense yet know so much more than the folks who are involved in the operation. As I'm sure you have heard, opinions are just like a**holes, everybody has one. The only difference is some seem to think their opinion is fact.

 

[eolesen]

Secondly FWAAA, when was the last time you were involved in airline negotiations. When was the last time you were able to sit in and listen how things were transpiring. It really is becoming somewhat laughable that posters like yourself have absolutely nothing to do with AA other than fly cheaply at our expense yet know so much more than the folks who are involved in the operation. As I'm sure you have heard, opinions are just like a**holes, everybody has one. The only difference is some seem to think their opinion is fact.

Not trying to stir up conspiracy theories by speaking on FWAAA's behalf, but I've been involved in a lot of different negotiations over the years, including arbitrations with the TWU. You might think that negotiating with labor is unique, but at the end of the day, I didn't find it to be any different than negotiating a commercial contract between two companies, or an employment agreement. It's all about give & take, and knowing what your walkaway positions and deal-breaker items are.

I've managed vendors, salaried and hourly employees over the past 20 years.... all of them have the same sort of drama, excuses, and issues that I saw my peers having to deal with supervising union employees at AA.

If you get outside the AA bubble, you'll find that out firsthand.

Lastly.... as for flying "at your expense"..... here's a fact for ya....

I track what I pay, and on average, it's $0.25-$1.00 per mile when flying AA.

That's at least double what AA's cost per seat mile is, so don't give me any of the BS that you're subsidizing me or any other business traveler's airfare.

 

[AANOTOK]

That's at least double what AA's cost per seat mile is, so don't give me any of the BS that you're subsidizing me or any other business traveler's airfare.

With all this talk about rising bag fees and “peak travel day” surcharges, sometimes we lose sight of the obvious:

Airfares, on average, have been cheap.

And as proof, here are the latest figures from the Transportation Dept.’s Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS):

Average domestic airfares in the third quarter of 2009 fell more than 14% compared to the third quarter of 2008. That is the biggest year-to-year decline on record.

The news gets even better: the average third quarter airfare going all the way back to 1995 was $288 – while in 2009, that airfare was $306. So the average airfare got higher, right? Wrong. Let’s adjust for inflation – let’s convert that 2009 fare into “1995 dollars”: now the $306 price is equivalent to $217.

So in a 14 year period, the average airfare (at least in third quarter periods) has dropped almost 25%. Amazing.

Yea, someone has to pay for this, and I submit to you that our 1.6 Billion a year and counting in givebacks would be
considered subsidizing your declining airfares. So, take your BS elsewhere.

As for you speaking for FWAAA, I could careless. Airline negotiations ARE unique. Spin away e, at least you prevent me from
saying "the spin stops here". lol

 

[PlayTheOdds]

More than any other work group......The mechanics are their own worst enemy!

Yea, "You got that right." The companies, unions, members, AMTA, AMTS and even the mechanics themselves has got such a simple idea so screwed up the whose who equation is infinite. How can you expect an agreeable TA negotieated between a union and company who doesn't even know who or what you are. How can you tell them who or what you are if you don't even know yourself?