NMB Ingores APFA

[jersey777]

If APFA actually came out and said what it wants for raises they would be LAUGHED off the street! The highest paid flight attendants want still more. Amazing.

You are so ignorant it is amazing!

 

[IORFA]

If AA wants to cut staffing, all they have to do is cut First Class off the 777's. After that, the whole "overstaffed" argument is done. My guess is that they would be able to get rid of 1, one, F/A. Expanding Business Class into the space that F/C occupies would still need 5 F/A's. If not the service would suffer big time. Maybe they do it. Maybe all you management wanna be's that continue to condescend the job as overpaid can suggest it. Then don't complain because there is no longer a F/C to have your company purchase or upgrade into. I for one could care less, AA might make more money. The whole idea that commavia can't grasp is that it isn't our choice AA does this. It is 100% AA's choice. AA feels that they need to offer F/C on the 777 and thus they need to staff it accordingly. I will remind everybody, Commavia and Josh especially, APFA does not have any language in our contract that dictates staffing. We just get the opportunity to grieve the companies action of reducing staffing. APFA wins only if they can convince the arbitrator that AA's rules and levels of service make the action a hardship. Once again, it is 100% in AA's hands as they set the service standards. Now what will the excuses be?

 

[IORFA]

While you may not be paid the most, AA FAs are by far the most expensive. In any business the wage paid to an employee is only a component on the total cost they impose. In this case uncompetitive rules, schedule max, and fringe benefit expenses drive up the cost AA FAs impose significantly.

Josh

Now come on, you know this to be fact because you crunched the numbers? Or because the all benevolent AA said so? Why as a supposed premier customer would you believe wholeheartedly what some anonymous company spouts? AA stretches the truth and twists facts to suit them on a daily basis. Not just to its' employees, but also to its' customers. Everyone should know that.

 

[commavia]

The whole idea that commavia can't grasp is that it isn't our choice AA does this.

Why do you say that I don't "grasp" this?

I was corrected on this point months ago - did you read what I wrote about learning from other people's posts? - and haven't made any such statements since. I totally stand corrected today - as I did then.

I'm not today disputing that AA itself chooses to "overstaff" these flights, but rather disputing that "overstaffing" 47 airplanes is why AA's flight attendants are the most expensive - on a per ASM basis - in the United States.

And, besides, the point I was making a few replies up is that - regardless of whether or not this assessment of the reasoning for AA flight attendants' above-industry costs - I simply find it surprising that the APFA would be advertising videos where their own paid economist says that AA's flight attendants are the most expensive in the U.S., and the reason is why is that AA employs more flight attendants than competitors. That could lead some of the most ignorant among us to conclude that: a) AA's flight attendant costs aren't competitive, and B) the solution is to lay off flight attendants. As I've asked repeatedly about this issue: which part of that argument is the APFA hoping to win?

 

[kirkpatrick]

their own paid economist says that AA's flight attendants are the most expensive in the U.S

It's been repeated over and over again, and you and others simply refuse to get it. AA flight attendant costs are in fact high, but not because the pay rates are the highest. It's the fact that 75 to 80% of the workforce is at top of scale. AA FA's start at just a few cents over $20 per hour, but there is no one working for those wages. SW, Jet Blue and others have large percentages of their work forces at lower levels in the pay scales.

MK

 

[commavia]

It's been repeated over and over again, and you and others simply refuse to get it. AA flight attendant costs are in fact high, but not because the pay rates are the highest. It's the fact that 75 to 80% of the workforce is at top of scale. AA FA's start at just a few cents over $20 per hour, but there is no one working for those wages. SW, Jet Blue and others have large percentages of their work forces at lower levels in the pay scales.

MK

Who is refusing to get anything?

For starters, I never said that AA's flight attendants were the highest paid - so not sure where the whole discussion of 'top-of-scale' is coming from. I said they were the most expensive - on a unit basis. There's a difference.

However, on the topic of pay scales, yes, it is definitely true, one of the big reasons why AA's flight attendants are more expensive on a unit cost basis than any of their peers is because everyone is topped out. No disputing that. Beyond that, the fact that AA's flight attendants are also less productive, on average, than peers at many other low-cost and regional airlines, along with the fact that the company is still actively funding your defined benefit pension, also add up to making AA's flight attendants the most expensive.

Who is "refus[ing] to get" anything?

 

[jersey777]

Why do you say that I don't "grasp" this?

I was corrected on this point months ago - did you read what I wrote about learning from other people's posts? - and haven't made any such statements since. I totally stand corrected today - as I did then.

I'm not today disputing that AA itself chooses to "overstaff" these flights, but rather disputing that "overstaffing" 47 airplanes is why AA's flight attendants are the most expensive - on a per ASM basis - in the United States.

And, besides, the point I was making a few replies up is that - regardless of whether or not this assessment of the reasoning for AA flight attendants' above-industry costs - I simply find it surprising that the APFA would be advertising videos where their own paid economist says that AA's flight attendants are the most expensive in the U.S., and the reason is why is that AA employs more flight attendants than competitors. That could lead some of the most ignorant among us to conclude that: a) AA's flight attendant costs aren't competitive, and B) the solution is to lay off flight attendants. As I've asked repeatedly about this issue: which part of that argument is the APFA hoping to win?

What about the executive decision to add 12 more seats to the 737 thus requiring a 4th flight attendant? How did this affect flight attendant staffing costs? AND we are not talking about 47 airplanes. We are talking about 153 airplanes and counting. Personally I prefer the older version with less seats..both as a crew member and as a passenger. The planes are roomier. I find it interesting that Jetblue did just the opposite with their A320's. They took out 2 rows of seats to get the plane under 150 seats and now only staff them at 3 flight attendants.

Another great example of the thinking at headquarters.

 

[Maark767]

While you may not be paid the most, AA FAs are by far the most expensive. In any business the wage paid to an employee is only a component on the total cost they impose. In this case uncompetitive rules, schedule max, and fringe benefit expenses drive up the cost AA FAs impose significantly.

Josh

And how do you really know what the F/A's cost are at AA ??? Maybe b/c management fed you this Bullsh**T and now it's golden. Please, a senior F/A with 20 yrs seniority living in New York and just flying the basic schedule will make maybe 55 K. Is that HIGH LABOR COSTS ? Come on , it's just plain out lies coming from the top. Stop being so fooled !!!

 

[commavia]

And how do you really know what the F/A's cost are at AA ???

At time 4:43.

Please, a senior F/A with 20 yrs seniority living in New York and just flying the basic schedule will make maybe 55 K. Is that HIGH LABOR COSTS ? Come on , it's just plain out lies coming from the top. Stop being so fooled !!!

Just out of curiosity, what does the 5-year flight attendant living in the same city, flying the same schedule, make at JetBlue? Or, for that matter, what does the 20-year flight attendant living in the same city, flying the same schedule, make at one of the Delta Connection carriers? And do those employees have pensions? Or a union?

 

[Imjustsayin]

At time 4:43.



Just out of curiosity, what does the 5-year flight attendant living in the same city, flying the same schedule, make at JetBlue? Or, for that matter, what does the 20-year flight attendant living in the same city, flying the same schedule, make at one of the Delta Connection carriers? And do those employees have pensions? Or a union?

American Airlines is a very good airline with some great employees. I fly on them regularly. And I have friends that work there. I hope they can get their labor negotiations behind them.

 

[737823]

And how do you really know what the F/A's cost are at AA ??? Maybe b/c management fed you this Bullsh**T and now it's golden. Please, a senior F/A with 20 yrs seniority living in New York and just flying the basic schedule will make maybe 55 K. Is that HIGH LABOR COSTS ? Come on , it's just plain out lies coming from the top. Stop being so fooled !!!

When I started as an analyst with Citigroup in New York I had an annual salary of $35k. Now granted that was 13 years ago and I had assistance from my parents who also live in New York, but $55k is doable. I guess the real questions should be what do you think is reasonable for a 20 year 'senior' FA living in New York? Two things I'd like to clear up-from my experience at AA 20 years isn't very senior as I've been told by the FAs on many international flights especially the line holder on the NRT routes. Secondly, an AA FA or mechanic based in DFW or STL makes the same as their counterpart in NYC or SFO with equal seniority. Is that fair? It seems many of the members based in places like DFW, STL, TUL and ORD to a certain extent where cost of living is lower than LAX or NYC don't want to see different payscales for different stations.

Josh

 

[nbmcg01]

When I started as an analyst with Citigroup in New York I had an annual salary of $35k. Now granted that was 13 years ago and I had assistance from my parents who also live in New York, but $55k is doable. I guess the real questions should be what do you think is reasonable for a 20 year 'senior' FA living in New York? Two things I'd like to clear up-from my experience at AA 20 years isn't very senior as I've been told by the FAs on many international flights especially the line holder on the NRT routes. Secondly, an AA FA or mechanic based in DFW or STL makes the same as their counterpart in NYC or SFO with equal seniority. Is that fair? It seems many of the members based in places like DFW, STL, TUL and ORD to a certain extent where cost of living is lower than LAX or NYC don't want to see different payscales for different stations.

Josh

What one is "worth" is totally up to what is negotiated by BOTH parties. One one else gets to weigh in on that "value". As my husband once said when a smart *** remark was made about f/a salaries, "my wife is a f/a and she was smart enough to go out and get the job". I have much more of an issue with senior mangt. receiving a "performance" bonus when the performance has been do poor. And stock brokers, realtors, sports figures, Drs, the list goes on and on....are any of them "worth" what they make..lol Not my job, nor yours to decide.

 

[FWAAA]

And how do you really know what the F/A's cost are at AA ??? Maybe b/c management fed you this Bullsh**T and now it's golden. Please, a senior F/A with 20 yrs seniority living in New York and just flying the basic schedule will make maybe 55 K. Is that HIGH LABOR COSTS ? Come on , it's just plain out lies coming from the top. Stop being so fooled !!!

Wow.

Dan Akins (APFA's paid economist consultant) is now a part of management? He admitted (how could he not, since it's an easy calculation to perform?) that AA's mainline FAs are the most expensive in the industry per ASM. What's stunning is that you, a member of the APFA, don't believe him.

As for Akins' explanation for why the AA FAs are the most expensive: UA staffs far more flights with three-class service than does AA (since all UA international 763 flights still feature F), so I don't see AA's 47 777 F flights as the sole reason AA enjoys the highest FA costs in the industry.

 

[737823]

What one is "worth" is totally up to what is negotiated by BOTH parties. One one else gets to weigh in on that "value". As my husband once said when a smart *** remark was made about f/a salaries, "my wife is a f/a and she was smart enough to go out and get the job". I have much more of an issue with senior mangt. receiving a "performance" bonus when the performance has been do poor. And stock brokers, realtors, sports figures, Drs, the list goes on and on....are any of them "worth" what they make..lol Not my job, nor yours to decide.

I agree completely and that's why I didn't assign a value to the salary for an AA FA. Clearly AA FAs are paid above market when you consider people are willing to work for the regionals and other mainline carriers for considerably less. Nonetheless, the wages paid by AA must be deemed reasonable or we'd have seen many FAs leave and pursue opportunities elsewhere. With that said, it seems either favorable opportunities do not exists elsewhere or FAs are willing to forgo a certain amount of pay in exchange for their unique work schedule, job, and benefits.

I don't doubt many AA FAs are very talented, educated, and make wonderful contributions both onboard and outside the workplace. For whatever reason FAs with professional degrees seem to stick with the profession. I'm not in anyway saying FAs are lazy or uneducated but the've simply made the lifestyle to decision to continue working as a FA.

I also agree the stock awards are unjustified and really demonstrate how weak much of AA's leadership is both in their ability to run the airline and manage and direct their subordinates. However, the current stock awards were set by a compensation committee and its a binding contract much like your collective bargaining agreement. Are you suggesting that because AA's financial performance doesn't live up to expectations or AA posts a loss they're free to cherry pick your contract, slash your pay and change work rules?

Josh

 

[Imjustsayin]

Jersey -
Ok this is from the sidelines I know, but it takes more than resolve to get a contract. It takes TWO parties who are ready, willing and able to negotiate. I can see American's proposals on AANegotiations.com. All I see from APFA is Youtube videos, Facebook posts and goofy campaigns. I don't doubt your resolve. But I do question your unions readiness, willingness and ability.

You can now add a USA Today Ad by APFA as another waste of the union's time and membership money.