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OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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I don't give a #### where the money came from. Your ass was on the street in September without the merger. I would have still been buying Christmas presents for the kids with money I was making at AWA.

You? Probably using money from your highly successful second career. But it wouldn't have been coming from US Air.

So you're lucky you weren't stapled.

Man, you're a greedy bastard.

It doesn't matter if USAir had an attorney walking up the steps of the court house with liquidation papers.....IT DIDN'T HAPPEN and we are still here doing the same job that we have invested our lives into.

It was a mutual merger, saving your asses too. You do not deserve to cash in that lottery ticket that NIC rolled up and told you to smoke. He really screwed with your heads.

breeze
 
Only if their contract was still intact after the fall of 2005, which is when Parker predicted AWE would have been filing BK.

Weak s=it, Clear

It is you that has a weak memory. Parker said that Us Airwas would have liquidated in 2005. Parker did not start floating the idea that that AWA would have gone BK until 2008.
 
It is you that has a weak memory. Parker said that Us Airwas would have liquidated in 2005. Parker did not start floating the idea that that AWA would have gone BK until 2008.

Ha...only because that was when he was put on the spot when things started heating up. In 2008, he stated that AWE would have filed BK in the fall of 2005 if it had not been for the merger.
breeze
 
Sorry, forgot to mention that one, where the merger was a mutual investment by the financial community, both were in dire straits, saving each airline from the woes of BK, and the low life West pilots were drooling to be part of a major network. These West pilots would have never thought of such a lottery ticket if it had not been suggested by St Nic, who screwed up the works for everyone. He really screwed it up for all of us. Honestly, prior to his proposal, did you even concieve that you would jump 14 yrs in seniority, just because of the transaction involved? No, I bet none of you guys had a clue that would happen. Now that he threw in the monkey wrench, you guys think you deserve that position.....that's total BS and you know it. Where we are now is that you guys think the NIC is the standard that USAPA has to live up to.....well, you're wrong. You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots.....it has nothing to do with NIC screwing with your minds.


It doesn't matter if we were within 1 hour of liquidation, it never happened and we're all still here doing the same job that we have spent most of our lives doing. Damned if we're going to let someone 14 yrs junior to us take a position senior to us.

breeze


"You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots."

There is your problem. a neutral arbitrator decided that the list he designed is fair and does not harm the west. Judge silver has said that the Nicolau is fair and does not harm the west. It is the west that decides if any list other than the nicolau harms the west and we go to court.

Is it possible for usapa to find a list that does not harm the west? So far no. Nothing has changed from 2008 when a jury found the DOH list to be harmful. Does usapa plan on presenting anything other than a DOH list? Because DOH does harm the west. So unless usapa has a change of mind their list will always do harm.

Now before you go crowing about C&R. It is more basic than that. A DOH list can not be made fair with any C&R. It is the beginning list that is the non starter. Try and get that through your brain to start.

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.


As the company lawyer said at the hearing. usapa has a constitutional mandate and UOM to use a DOH list. So usapa can not propose anything other than a DOH list.

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

Therefore it is an so easy even a mrbreeze can do it. Any seniority list usapa proposed will ALWAYS harm the west. Get it?

"You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots."


A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

What is your plan B?
 
"You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots."

There is your problem. a neutral arbitrator decided that the list he designed is fair and does not harm the west. Judge silver has said that the Nicolau is fair and does not harm the west. It is the west that decides if any list other than the nicolau harms the west and we go to court.

Is it possible for usapa to find a list that does not harm the west? So far no. Nothing has changed from 2008 when a jury found the DOH list to be harmful. Does usapa plan on presenting anything other than a DOH list? Because DOH does harm the west. So unless usapa has a change of mind their list will always do harm.

Now before you go crowing about C&R. It is more basic than that. A DOH list can not be made fair with any C&R. It is the beginning list that is the non starter. Try and get that through your brain to start.

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.


As the company lawyer said at the hearing. usapa has a constitutional mandate and UOM to use a DOH list. So usapa can not propose anything other than a DOH list.

A DOH list list will ALWAYS harm the west.

Therefore it is an so easy even a mrbreeze can do it. Any seniority list usapa proposed will ALWAYS harm the west. Get it?

"You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots."


A DOH list list will ALWAYS harm the west.

What is your plan B?

Have you been drug tested lately? Obviously, you not only took a toke of the NIC smoke, but smoked the whole thing yourself.

Interpret it anyway you like.....you will not see the NIC.....that's the bottom line.
breeze
 
Man, you're a greedy bastard.

It doesn't matter if USAir had an attorney walking up the steps of the court house with liquidation papers.....IT DIDN'T HAPPEN and we are still here doing the same job that we have invested our lives into.

It was a mutual merger, saving your asses too. You do not deserve to cash in that lottery ticket that NIC rolled up and told you to smoke. He really screwed with your heads.

breeze

And you're and ignorant bastard. You're career expectations were ZERO! You were going to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas on the street and there was no doubt about that. You were already in bankruptcy and on your way to liquidation. We weren't even close to filing for anything.

So get over yourself. Your career is a mess and you're not going to fix it using our jobs. If anyone hit the lottery, it was all you easties.

You were lucky to have enough money to buy gifts for the kids.

Man you guys are messed about. No wonder the rest of the industry hates you guys so much.
 
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]As we reported last night, attorneys for the West Class filed a motion yesterday afternoon before Judge Silver recommending two[/background]additions[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] be made to the Court’s proposed order. The basis for this request is the long and consistent history of USAPA to misconstrue legal principles. Mind you, we are not talking about vigorous advocacy before a court, we are talking about gross mischaracterization of law and facts which are routinely argued by USAPA. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Today, USAPA sent a communication which notified the membership that USAPA is filing a response to the West Class attorneys’ Motion to Add Language. In this communication, USAPA quotes directly from Judge Silver’s proposed order. Aside from the impropriety of directly quoting from the proposal, we will examine the quoted finding of law and then offer the complete legal analysis which the communication fails to provide. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA counsel quotes Judge Silver stating that USAPA is free to negotiate. Not coincidentally, that is exactly what the Ninth Circuit said in the [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] opinion. Again, just as we discussed in last night’s update, Judge Silver made it very clear during Tuesday’s oral arguments that although she disagreed with the Ninth’s ruling in [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)], she is bound by it unless she ultimately decides that the [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] ruling does not apply to the Company’s case. In legal-speak, the issue is whether the ripeness in [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] is distinguishable from the Company’s Declaratory Action. That is the crux of what Mr. Siegel argued for the Company, and also what Mr. Harper argued on behalf of the West pilots. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]If Judge Silver ultimately decides that [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] applies to the Company’s Declaratory Action, then the legal effect will be the same for the Company as it is for the West pilots: there can be no ripe claim until there is a ratified contract. It’s there in which the danger lies for the Company because they are required to negotiate with USAPA per the RLA, and it’s precisely those negotiations which build the “aiding and abetting” claim that the West will inevitably make against the Company if they agree to a non-Nicolau. This is the reality of our situation: (i) the Company knows they have to negotiate; (ii) they know USAPA will insist on a non-Nicolau; (iii) they know that a previous federal judge and jury already found USAPA’s non-Nicolau to constitute a DFR; (iv) without a declaration from Judge Silver on any of the claims in their Declaratory Action, they will be walking through a proverbial minefield towards an outcome that will surely saddle them with liability to the West pilots for agreeing to a non-Nicolau seniority integration. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Today’s communication by USAPA appears to intentionally omit the all-important and ever-present restriction to bargaining freedom; namely, the duty to fairly represent. To date, [/background]no judge has identified any purpose offered by USAPA as legitimate.[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] In essence, counsel is letting USAPA walk off a cliff in the mistaken belief that pilots can fly without airplanes if they hire lawyers who say they can. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA’s non-Nicolau seniority scheme has already been found to be in breach of their DFR by a Federal judge and jury. This is precisely what is controlling the situation between USAPA, the West and the Company. All US Airways pilots have an absolute right to be properly informed by their bargaining agent. We are entitled to a competent analysis of the legal issues, which means we are entitled to a complete analysis of the law as applied to our situation. Quoting only one sentence and then neglecting to explain the legal meaning is not a complete analysis. This has been a problem with USAPA since the day it was birthed. It is not a fully informed decision by the union members which USAPA seeks. Rather, for USAPA it is all about mischaracterization and obfuscation to bend and shape collective thought to the benefit of a few; a truly Machiavellian approach. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA’s founders and follow-on leadership have never sought an honest, [/background]neutral[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] risk assessment of their quest for a non-Nicolau seniority list. If they had done a true, neutral evaluation and presented it to all parties involved, maybe we would be far removed from this go-for-broke, win-at-all-cost adventure. Instead, USAPA has relied repeatedly on advice tailored to emotional desire versus an effective, beneficial outcome for all, even when staring down numerous Federal Court opinions telling them they are standing on quicksand. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Tuesday was not a win for USAPA. What we learned, again, was that USAPA is perhaps free to work on a different seniority solution during negotiations, but it is not free to ignore the legal consequences of repudiating the Nicolau Award, and neither is US Airways. What more do they need know? [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Have a great weekend and thank you for your continued support.[/background]
 
And you're and ignorant bastard. You're career expectations were ZERO! You were going to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas on the street and there was no doubt about that. You were already in bankruptcy and on your way to liquidation. We weren't even close to filing for anything.

So get over yourself. Your career is a mess and you're not going to fix it using our jobs. If anyone hit the lottery, it was all you easties.

You were lucky to have enough money to buy gifts for the kids.

Man you guys are messed about. No wonder the rest of the industry hates you guys so much.

Bottom line....we were never on the street, dumbass. Why? you ask? because of the $9 billion we gave up over the next several years to ensure that our carrers would move forward. Now, get in your designated spot in the DOH list and forget what NIC did to fuk with your heads.

breeze
 
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]As we reported last night, attorneys for the West Class filed a motion yesterday afternoon before Judge Silver recommending two[/background]additions[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] be made to the Court’s proposed order. The basis for this request is the long and consistent history of USAPA to misconstrue legal principles. Mind you, we are not talking about vigorous advocacy before a court, we are talking about gross mischaracterization of law and facts which are routinely argued by USAPA. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Today, USAPA sent a communication which notified the membership that USAPA is filing a response to the West Class attorneys’ Motion to Add Language. In this communication, USAPA quotes directly from Judge Silver’s proposed order. Aside from the impropriety of directly quoting from the proposal, we will examine the quoted finding of law and then offer the complete legal analysis which the communication fails to provide. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA counsel quotes Judge Silver stating that USAPA is free to negotiate. Not coincidentally, that is exactly what the Ninth Circuit said in the [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] opinion. Again, just as we discussed in last night’s update, Judge Silver made it very clear during Tuesday’s oral arguments that although she disagreed with the Ninth’s ruling in [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)], she is bound by it unless she ultimately decides that the [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] ruling does not apply to the Company’s case. In legal-speak, the issue is whether the ripeness in [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] is distinguishable from the Company’s Declaratory Action. That is the crux of what Mr. Siegel argued for the Company, and also what Mr. Harper argued on behalf of the West pilots. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]If Judge Silver ultimately decides that [/background]Addington[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] applies to the Company’s Declaratory Action, then the legal effect will be the same for the Company as it is for the West pilots: there can be no ripe claim until there is a ratified contract. It’s there in which the danger lies for the Company because they are required to negotiate with USAPA per the RLA, and it’s precisely those negotiations which build the “aiding and abetting” claim that the West will inevitably make against the Company if they agree to a non-Nicolau. This is the reality of our situation: (i) the Company knows they have to negotiate; (ii) they know USAPA will insist on a non-Nicolau; (iii) they know that a previous federal judge and jury already found USAPA’s non-Nicolau to constitute a DFR; (iv) without a declaration from Judge Silver on any of the claims in their Declaratory Action, they will be walking through a proverbial minefield towards an outcome that will surely saddle them with liability to the West pilots for agreeing to a non-Nicolau seniority integration. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Today’s communication by USAPA appears to intentionally omit the all-important and ever-present restriction to bargaining freedom; namely, the duty to fairly represent. To date, [/background]no judge has identified any purpose offered by USAPA as legitimate.[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] In essence, counsel is letting USAPA walk off a cliff in the mistaken belief that pilots can fly without airplanes if they hire lawyers who say they can. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA’s non-Nicolau seniority scheme has already been found to be in breach of their DFR by a Federal judge and jury. This is precisely what is controlling the situation between USAPA, the West and the Company. All US Airways pilots have an absolute right to be properly informed by their bargaining agent. We are entitled to a competent analysis of the legal issues, which means we are entitled to a complete analysis of the law as applied to our situation. Quoting only one sentence and then neglecting to explain the legal meaning is not a complete analysis. This has been a problem with USAPA since the day it was birthed. It is not a fully informed decision by the union members which USAPA seeks. Rather, for USAPA it is all about mischaracterization and obfuscation to bend and shape collective thought to the benefit of a few; a truly Machiavellian approach. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA’s founders and follow-on leadership have never sought an honest, [/background]neutral[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] risk assessment of their quest for a non-Nicolau seniority list. If they had done a true, neutral evaluation and presented it to all parties involved, maybe we would be far removed from this go-for-broke, win-at-all-cost adventure. Instead, USAPA has relied repeatedly on advice tailored to emotional desire versus an effective, beneficial outcome for all, even when staring down numerous Federal Court opinions telling them they are standing on quicksand. [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Tuesday was not a win for USAPA. What we learned, again, was that USAPA is perhaps free to work on a different seniority solution during negotiations, but it is not free to ignore the legal consequences of repudiating the Nicolau Award, and neither is US Airways. What more do they need know? [/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Have a great weekend and thank you for your continued support.[/background]

You need to practice your cut and paste abilities. This is obviously BS.
 
Have you been drug tested lately? Obviously, you not only took a toke of the NIC smoke, but smoked the whole thing yourself.

Interpret it anyway you like.....you will not see the NIC.....that's the bottom line.
breeze
A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

Here is an example.

The pilot at the top of the west list goes from 518 on the Nicolau list to 899 by DOH or 7.0% to 13.4%

The junior west captain goes from 2970 on the Nicolau list to 4604 by DOH or 45.5% to 68.0%

This junior captain also goes from having zero furloughs senior to him to having 460 furloughs senior to him. Using DOH 82% of the west pilots would have a furloughed pilot senior to them. Only 340 west pilots would be unaffected by furlough pilots. That west captain 18.5% down the west list would be placed 6 numbers senior to Monda the JUNIOR east active reserve F/O.

Dave Odell goes from 4769 on the Nicolau list to 6676 by DOH or 73.1% to 100%.

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

There is not a set of C&R in the world that can mitigate that kind of harm to the west. A DOH list places ALL of the active east F/O’s and 460 furlough pilots senior to west captains. Every upgrade at the airline would be taken by an east pilots leaving west pilots stagnate and furlough fodder. How does that as usapa says “with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.”

A DOH list does not preserve the west un-merged expectations of holding a line, weekends off or upgrading. As a matter of fact a DOH would be a violation of the C&BL. a furloughed guys un merged career expectations was the street not senior to 400 west captains. Going from junior reserve F/O to line holding captain.

Let me say again because I know your east guys are thick headed.

A DOH list will ALWAYS harm the west.

As you said yourself. "You are represented by USAPA and all that has to be done is to propose a SLI that does not harm the West pilots."

You will not see a DOH list and that is the bottom line.
 
Bottom line....we were never on the street, dumbass. Why? you ask? because of the $9 billion we gave up over the next several years to ensure that our carrers would move forward. Now, get in your designated spot in the DOH list and forget what NIC did to fuk with your heads.

breeze
Facts getting in your way tonight?

1700 of you were on the street dumbass.
 
This is obviously BS.

To an almost unimaginable degree. 😉 I'm glad I dropped by again for what turns out to be a truly good laugh = "[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]What we learned, again, was that USAPA is perhaps free to work on a different seniority solution during negotiations,.." Wow!...Seriously? "perhaps" free?..After two subsequent courts, one of which being a circuit court of appeals, directly state that it needn't be the nic and that the union's free to negotiate as it wishes....the sad little puffer fish in AOL's brain trust had to tragically deflate themselves just barely enough to actually admit some small aspect of reality, and then, of course, attempt to color it with "perhaps"? [/background] Now; even briefly examine that within the context of another cute little bit = "[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] with usapa it is all about mischaracterization and obfuscation to bend and shape collective thought to the benefit of a few; a truly Machiavellian approach." 😉[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]You just can't make this stuff up! 😉[/background]

"...[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]but it is not free to ignore the legal consequences of repudiating the Nicolau Award, and neither is US Airways."[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Indeed, Nevermind that said "legal consequences" have thus far proved, and are very likely to remain, purely imaginary in nature (reminiscent of nic4us's "billions in damages").[/background]..but who can possibly doubt that both the union and company are nonetheless terrified ? Equally so; who could dare doubt that the company, striving mightily to put together a multibillion dollar merger (that would obscenely enrich the top management) must needs be entirely wrapped-around-the-axle and losing sleep over the admitted minority of but one employee group that is the west pilots? Yep...it all "makes sense", and it's quite obvious that the great and powerful OzAOL does indeed have the situation well in hand...well...at least insofar as spinning pure BS to the donating audience goes anyway......

No matter I suppose. "[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Have a great weekend and thank you for your continued support." 🙂[/background]
 
Facts getting in your way tonight?

1700 of you were on the street dumbass.
Facts getting in your way tonight?

1700 of you were on the street dumbass.

Don't try and twist my words, clear.

Obviously, I am talking about the guys that were still on the line when you guys claim that we were supposed to liquidate, not the furloughs that happened when management parked 101 of our jets, which again was a management decision, not related to a pilots career of time on the job.

Bottom line is that we didn't liquidate and that you are represented by USAPA.
 
You will not see a DOH list and that is the bottom line.

We need to talk... I need some stock picks.

Seriously, it's time to get in the game. Many of you are sitting back waiting on the NIC to happen with no plan B except to file a DFR. There is a list that will satisfy the courts and the needs of ALL the pilot group. It's not the NIC and it's not straight DOH either. Either a deal gets brokered or we stay buried in this mess. The paradigm at the airline has changed so drastically that it bares little resemblance to the PID. Crying in your beer or pitching fits won't solve this. It's time for reasonable people to be reasonable. There is no place left to hide.

Driver....
 
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