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OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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It's time for reasonable people to be reasonable. There is no place left to hide.

Driver....

While I respect your sentiment, I'm afraid there are no reasonable people in control of our union. If there were, we wouldn't be here in the fist place.

The law is the law, and our west counterparts have the advantage. Why would they choose to give that up? I wouldn't if in their shoes. Neither would you, I assume.

" [background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]USAPA is perhaps free to work on a different seniority solution during negotiations, but it is not free to ignore the legal consequences of repudiating the Nicolau Award, and neither is US Airways.[/background] "

This is exactly what I said in my last post days ago. The legal consequences are the problem. And if it's not a problem for our union leaders, it most certainly will be for US AIrways, (Or AMR and the APA for that matter.)

Now back to the never ending rhetoric...
 
While I respect your sentiment, I'm afraid there are no reasonable people in control of our union. If there were, we wouldn't be here in the fist place.

I guess we need to deal with one thing at a time. We have 3 resaonable pilots waiting to be our reps in CLT as soon as we finish our petitions. That will go a long way towards fixing USAPA.

Driver...
 
It ain't going to happen that way...

What is going to happen is the APA list and the Nic will be combined in a "fair and equitable" manner.

How about this east...you go over to the APA and tell the 27 year AMR 777 captain who has been flying it for the last 15 years that since you got hired in the year before him in 1984 and were an f28 captain back in the day that he is just going to have to step aside because you got him by 6 months.

He is going to turn to you and say ...not only are you junior to me...you are junior to most the AMR guys junior to me. oh, and guess what...he is only 52 and does not give a damn hold old you are.


You do realize that, regardless of how any SLI, in the event of an AMR merger, might go down, that the resultant fences are going to be so tall, so long and so wide, that few of any of us are going to ever be "forcing" ANY 777 pilots out of their seats.


seajay
 
Clear, you have been destroyed with every court case. The seniority issue has been cleaned up. The company has to take what USAPA offers. This thing is done.

So offer something already. Get it done.
 
We are starting to hear that not to many people are giving money anymore to AOL, they are broke and in debt to the attorneys,and feel they have been mislead and lied to by Furguson (go figure). The implosion has started.

You heard wrong. We have money. After all, we make 17% more than you.
 
They will, we will be meeting with the APA boys shortly to talk about the possible merge
scenarios so far they seem to be OK with the 2 lists going DOH with fences. Just relax you will be well protected in PHX.

A DOH list would be harmful to the APA. Try your spin again.
 
Hint: My friend, if you over-use a word for hyperbole, you have to come up with a more exaggerated term the next time you want to employ hyperbole.

I doubt if nic4us will be your friend either. Get a new word.
 
Hmmm....Who's ruled anything to be "an illegal revision"? I must have completely missed where/when that took place....and anyway...I just dunno 'bout that bit nic. That kinda' reminds me of the west's good ole' "Send the cards...I DARE you!" days....just sayin' 😉

The company admitted in court that the TA is a contract and they believe they are legally bound to the Nic. How did you miss that? Oh, yeah, I forgot, you don't read anything official, you just believe everything your "union" tells you. Yet you boast of your intelligence.
 
Notice the Westoffs fall back to the western group being harmed exclusively? Never is it a speck in their entitled minds the Nic is the most egregious list in history. And using it damages the easterners in a destructive manner. This is why they will lose any harm trial.
 
We need to talk... I need some stock picks.

Seriously, it's time to get in the game. Many of you are sitting back waiting on the NIC to happen with no plan B except to file a DFR. There is a list that will satisfy the courts and the needs of ALL the pilot group. It's not the NIC and it's not straight DOH either. Either a deal gets brokered or we stay buried in this mess. The paradigm at the airline has changed so drastically that it bares little resemblance to the PID. Crying in your beer or pitching fits won't solve this. It's time for reasonable people to be reasonable. There is no place left to hide.

Driver....

I agree. The east can also repeat the mantra "The Nic will always harm the east". So let's agree that both DOH and Nic should be non-starters.

It's been often argued that the east will never, no way get a re-do. The courts have ruled otherwise, but now USAPA needs to be truly smart and creative. They have been given an opportunity to actually re-do the award.

Can USAPA craft a list which honors the principles of DOH but reflects the unique demographics of our two disparate pilot groups? A list which will be able to withstand the test of any future DFR challenge?

I think such a list is possible and I have read and heard a number of creative ways to fashion such a list. But is USAPA willing and capable of doing so?

One place to start is to better protect the pilots who will be most vulnerable in the event of a transition from hub to focus city. I won't mention any three letter identifiers.

Another is to acknowledge that time on furlough, as difficult as it may be, does not carry the same claim as active time. Even most former furloughees would acknowledge that.

BTW, who would replace the CLT reps - do you have any names?
 
without the merger what was the east pilots pay rate going to be at the end of 2005? The west guy was going to make more than ALL the east pilots in 2006 flying airplanes.

Not according to Doug Parker. Plus, the east guy had the value of the US system that made Parker want to merge and thus saved both companies.
 
The truth hurts.

As we reported last night, attorneys for the West Class filed a motion yesterday afternoon before Judge Silver recommending two additions be made to the Court’s proposed order. The basis for this request is the long and consistent history of USAPA to misconstrue legal principles. Mind you, we are not talking about vigorous advocacy before a court, we are talking about gross mischaracterization of law and facts which are routinely argued by USAPA.

Today, USAPA sent a communication which notified the membership that USAPA is filing a response to the West Class attorneys’ Motion to Add Language. In this communication, USAPA quotes directly from Judge Silver’s proposed order. Aside from the impropriety of directly quoting from the proposal, we will examine the quoted finding of law and then offer the complete legal analysis which the communication fails to provide.

USAPA counsel quotes Judge Silver stating that USAPA is free to negotiate. Not coincidentally, that is exactly what the Ninth Circuit said in the Addington opinion. Again, just as we discussed in last night’s update, Judge Silver made it very clear during Tuesday’s oral arguments that although she disagreed with the Ninth’s ruling in Addington, she is bound by it unless she ultimately decides that the Addington ruling does not apply to the Company’s case. In legal-speak, the issue is whether the ripeness in Addington is distinguishable from the Company’s Declaratory Action. That is the crux of what Mr. Siegel argued for the Company, and also what Mr. Harper argued on behalf of the West pilots.

If Judge Silver ultimately decides that Addington applies to the Company’s Declaratory Action, then the legal effect will be the same for the Company as it is for the West pilots: there can be no ripe claim until there is a ratified contract. It’s there in which the danger lies for the Company because they are required to negotiate with USAPA per the RLA, and it’s precisely those negotiations which build the “aiding and abetting” claim that the West will inevitably make against the Company if they agree to a non-Nicolau. This is the reality of our situation: (i) the Company knows they have to negotiate; (ii) they know USAPA will insist on a non-Nicolau; (iii) they know that a previous federal judge and jury already found USAPA’s non-Nicolau to constitute a DFR; (iv) without a declaration from Judge Silver on any of the claims in their Declaratory Action, they will be walking through a proverbial minefield towards an outcome that will surely saddle them with liability to the West pilots for agreeing to a non-Nicolau seniority integration.

Today’s communication by USAPA appears to intentionally omit the all-important and ever-present restriction to bargaining freedom; namely, the duty to fairly represent. To date, no judge has identified any purpose offered by USAPA as legitimate. In essence, counsel is letting USAPA walk off a cliff in the mistaken belief that pilots can fly without airplanes if they hire lawyers who say they can.

USAPA’s non-Nicolau seniority scheme has already been found to be in breach of their DFR by a Federal judge and jury. This is precisely what is controlling the situation between USAPA, the West and the Company. All US Airways pilots have an absolute right to be properly informed by their bargaining agent. We are entitled to a competent analysis of the legal issues, which means we are entitled to a complete analysis of the law as applied to our situation. Quoting only one sentence and then neglecting to explain the legal meaning is not a complete analysis. This has been a problem with USAPA since the day it was birthed. It is not a fully informed decision by the union members which USAPA seeks. Rather, for USAPA it is all about mischaracterization and obfuscation to bend and shape collective thought to the benefit of a few; a truly Machiavellian approach.

USAPA’s founders and follow-on leadership have never sought an honest, neutral risk assessment of their quest for a non-Nicolau seniority list. If they had done a true, neutral evaluation and presented it to all parties involved, maybe we would be far removed from this go-for-broke, win-at-all-cost adventure. Instead, USAPA has relied repeatedly on advice tailored to emotional desire versus an effective, beneficial outcome for all, even when staring down numerous Federal Court opinions telling them they are standing on quicksand.

Tuesday was not a win for USAPA. What we learned, again, was that USAPA is perhaps free to work on a different seniority solution during negotiations, but it is not free to ignore the legal consequences of repudiating the Nicolau Award, and neither is US Airways. What more do they need know?

Have a great weekend and thank you for your continued support.

Leonidas, LLC
 
USAPA has no choice other than to drag Leonidas into court after a contract when they start their harm whine. Under the glare of scrutiny their "harm" will be shone to be what it is, entitlement and greed.
Nobody feels bad for them.
 
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