OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[jetjok1]

Well heck, that poor kid has been raised by you so he is shot. He's have been better off with the other parent alone. Tell him I said good luck and I'm sorry, but we can't pick our parents and he drew at least one short straw.

Actually, he's full of it.........no 13 year old is that smart especially coming from his Goober bloodline..........by the way......is his name Bo? (Shortened for his fams favorite fast food hangout).

 

[EastUS1]

All your cheerleaders of the past, HPEarly, Boeing Boy, Jetzz, 700 UW Metroyet have been proven wrong on the binding arbitration by Judge Silver. You are now down to the final confused on the issue.

Pretty much.

 

[DCAJet]

"Clinton appointed Judge Silver"

Bush 1 appointed Judge Silver.

 

[cleardirect]

What is there to negotiate? The Binding, willfully agreed to neutral arbitrated decision?

LOL!!!

I rarely peek into this love fest, but I have a question for you guys..

Am I understanding the judges ruling correctly in that the company and USAPA are now free to negotiate a contract for the pilots employed by LCC. (thats a period)

Given USAPA position, and no, I'm not looking for further posturing from other sides, as there will be law suits regardless..

Is the ruling, in a nutshell, nothing more than the right for the company to negotiate a contract for the LCC pilot. (again a period)

?

You are correct.

Judge Silver said that she can not tell the company what to do but warned strongly that any change from the Nicolau puts usapa on dangerous ground. That usapa had better have a damn good reason, legitimate union purpose not to use the Nicolau.

This is what puts the company in the bind.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court shall enter judgment dismissing
Counts I and III of the complaint and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II
of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach
its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.

Parker is going to have to decide if the excuse usapa gives is legally legitimate or this whole thing ends up back in court. If we merge the APA inherits the law suit. Keith Wilson was told this in no uncertain terms at the BPR meeting.

Telling the judge we tied to negotiate with the west but they refuse is not a reason or LUP to change the Nicolau.

As you said the judge gave usapa the right to negotiate with the company she did not tell the west that we had to negotiate with usapa.

 

[EastUS1]

That usapa had better have a damn good reason, legitimate union purpose not to use the Nicolau.

I can immediately think of a number of perfectly reasonable purposes that are well-served by dismissing the nic insanity. Speaking of insanity: It amazes me that any people capable of ever imagining themselves as little "spartans" in some Fantasyland "army" seem surprisingly unable to even envision any scenarios that won't include the nic.... I suppose I must realize even contemplating such an heretical notion is both blasphemous and entirely unthinkable for the most devout cultists.

 

[Metroyet]

Evidently you think a seniority windfall if more important than working with USAPA to get your $140/hr rate.

Don't work for us air....and my pay rate is well north of that. Try again.

 

[Phoenix]

You are correct.

Judge Silver said that she can not tell the company what to do but warned strongly that any change from the Nicolau puts usapa on dangerous ground. That usapa had better have a damn good reason, legitimate union purpose not to use the Nicolau.

This is what puts the company in the bind.



Parker is going to have to decide if the excuse usapa gives is legally legitimate or this whole thing ends up back in court. If we merge the APA inherits the law suit. Keith Wilson was told this in no uncertain terms at the BPR meeting.

Telling the judge we tied to negotiate with the west but they refuse is not a reason or LUP to change the Nicolau.

As you said the judge gave usapa the right to negotiate with the company she did not tell the west that we had to negotiate with usapa.

Can you please quote the exact line in Silver's order or judgement that says she "gave USAPA the right to negotiate with the company"?

I see the part where she says "US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation" but I don't see where she "gave USAPA the right to negotiate with the company".

Do you mean to say that she chose not to place an injunction on USAPA or the company? That is true but her judgement on USAPA's seniority proposal, and the company's freedom to have no need to oppose it, is far more illuminating.

 

[Phoenix]

Don't work for us air....and my pay rate is well north of that. Try again.

Then spend some of that booty on a shrink to help illuminate the cause of your voyeuristic obsession. ... and just because you don't work here and you make so much more money (wink, wink) it doesn't mean you can't support USAPA.

 

[Pi brat]

As you said the judge gave usapa the right to negotiate with the company she did not tell the west that we had to negotiate with usapa.

Hey, what do you know? We agree on something. I don't remember Judge Silver telling the west they had to negotiate. Thing is, I don't remember anyone saying that she did. I would go back and look but every time I do that and show you that you are wrong you just stick your fingers in your ears, ignore my posts and pretend it didn't happen.

Why would USAPA "negotiate" with the west? They are members, and I don't negotiate with them. What they are doing is giving the west opportunities to fashion their union policies. Or put on paper that they have because we know you guys never will and maybe that is the best course of action for you. Maybe they learned from DFR I?

 

[cleardirect]

The judge questions USAPA, "Did you ever try to negotiate with the west?" They answer with a list of attempts made. "And was the west ever willing to participate?" They answer, "No, your honor." "Case dismissed."

A legitimate union purpose.

Judge Silver said that the company can negotiate away from the Nicolau if usapa can come up with a LUP.

Telling the court that the west will not negotiate is not a LUP. It is pretext. usapa has to come up with a LUP WHY usapa wants to move away from the Nicolau which as the judge said.

The East Pilots disagreed with the arbitration award and took immediate steps to frustrate it.

In other words, one of the main purposes of USAPA is to reject the Nicolau Award.

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award
and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the
result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is
running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective
bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an
appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.

The judge said that the Nicolau was fair. The arbitrator said the list is fair. The company accepted the list. So telling the court the west will not negotiate because the east does not think it is fair, is not a LUP.

Nowhere in that order did it say that the west had to negotiate with usapa. The order said that usapa can negotiate with the company. There is no method for the west to negotiate with usapa. If usapa tries to tell the court the west refuses. Simple answer. Show us where in the C&BL that is allowed and how does it happen? The west points to the C&BL and tells the court that the negotiation would be required to be DOH. A mandated list. That is not negotiation if the outcome is fixed. What you would have to tell the court is that you were not negotiating a senior list but only a set of C&R.

Which BTW the company would still have to accept. usapa has no way of knowing if the company would accept the C&R or any leverage to forced them to.

So even if the west did agree to negotiate and somehow find C&R that makes DOH fair (impossible) the company could turn them down. So we wasted our time and got no closer.

I have said it before C&R are expensive and we would all have to pay for them. That means the east gets seniority and a little less, the west losses seniority and what little contract gains we were going to get. A lose lose for the west and usapa not bargaining fairly for the west.

Bottom line is usapa has to come up with a LUP WHY they want to use a non arbitrated list.

Advancing the majority over the minority is not a reason.
Because you think is is not fair is not a reason.
Because you think only east pilots should fly WB is not a reason.
East pilots looking to fix your poor careers at the expense of the west is not a reason.
Because you were furloughed but think you deserve to be senior to a west captain is not a reason.
Changing seniority to "break the logjam" as Seham tried to argue 4 years ago does not hold up.
A contract will never pass is not a reason. You would have to have evidence of several votes and proof that it was the seniority list and not the money or anything else. So far there is nothing to vote on.

It is the WHY that usapa needs to concentrate on and so far they don't have a legal reason to change. Not one that the company is going to put the company at risk for.

 

[Pi brat]

This is what puts the company in the bind.



Keith Wilson was told this in no uncertain terms at the BPR meeting.

I don't think it puts the company in a bind at all. I think they have all the deniability they need, but will use it as an excuse if they want to continue to delay.

Oh, I bet Keith went home shaking in his boots. If I were him I would go home thinking "How can we get what we want without getting involved in that disaster!"

 

[cleardirect]

I can immediately think of a number of perfectly reasonable purposes that are well-served by dismissing the nic insanity. Speaking of insanity: It amazes me that any people capable of ever imagining themselves as little "spartans" in some Fantasyland "army" seem surprisingly unable to even envision any scenarios that won't include the nic.... I suppose I must realize even contemplating such an heretical notion is both blasphemous and entirely unthinkable for the most devout cultists.

Please illuminate.

What are your number of perfectly reasonable purposes WHY usapa wants to ignore a fair arbitrated list?

 

[Pi brat]

Changing seniority to "break the logjam" as Seham tried to argue 4 years ago does not hold up.
A contract will never pass is not a reason. You would have to have evidence of several votes and proof that it was the seniority list and not the money or anything else. So far there is nothing to vote on.

So how many votes does the law say we have to have before it would be a LUP?

We have been buried in a war of attrition for 5 years while our peers make gains that would take years for us to catch up with. The west has stagnated, with pilots still furloughed, no upgrades and pilots that did elect to go east unable to use their seniority and in a state of limbo. The east pilots are stuck on a lousy, contract. There was an election last year that offered a clear choice on the stalemate. The west slate said in no uncertain terms that they would end the fight and they were thoroughly defeated.

So it's just votes on a contract that count?

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think it puts the company in a bind at all. I think they have all the deniability they need, but will use it as an excuse if they want to continue to delay.

Oh, I bet Keith went home shaking in his boots. If I were him I would go home thinking "How can we get what we want without getting involved in that disaster!"

Very good!

Now read it again. You have finally found your answer.

How does the APA not get involved in this disaster is to use the legal final and binding arbitrated list. So simple you finally figured it out.

 

[cleardirect]

So how many votes does the law say we have to have before it would be a LUP?

We have been buried in a war of attrition for 5 years while our peers make gains that would take years for us to catch up with. The west has stagnated, with pilots still furloughed, no upgrades and pilots that did elect to go east unable to use their seniority and in a state of limbo. The east pilots are stuck on a lousy, contract. There was an election last year that offered a clear choice on the stalemate. The west slate said in no uncertain terms that they would end the fight and they were thoroughly defeated.

So it's just votes on a contract that count?

Really! Want to answer your own question?

You want to argue that an officer election is proof that usapa DOH seniority scam is the final contract?

Soooo, if I were to accept your "logic" that would make the Addington case RIPE. Is it just a contract that counts?