OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

Another interesting topic Parker addressed in the recent Crew News, the West is overstaffed with pilots, there isn't enough flying in PHX to keep the minimum required number of pilots "efficiently" utilized, even with the East flying, that the West has been doing, his words. West furloughs going to the East A320 F/O seat and nothing but stagnation ahead in PHX for the next few years.

A West questioner stated that new hires off the street are being told that they will be upgrading in 5 years. Where would that put current junior working West F/O's, on a DOH list?, 3 years from an upgrade?, who knows but it would be less than a new hire off the street, yes? It doesn't appear that the PHX operation is EVER going to grow on a stand alone basis. The way forward and out of the projected stagnation in PHX, is clearly the ability of the West to bid East.

The all or nothing bet the West has on the NIC ever seeing implementation, is becoming riskier by the day. Got to hand it to the West though, it's a guts position to maintain. Like they say, "No Balls, No Blue Chips", right?


seajay

 

[Keroseneuser]

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present another wonder kid...

Yeah I wish! I could have maybe avoided many years flying airplanes held together by bandaids and duct tape to get time.

 

[prechilill]

Pre, let me ask you a few things.

When you were hired at AWA do you think there were any other applicants that were older than you? Any with more time? Any more intelligent? Any that had worked harder, through tougher circumstances than you?

If you answer yes to any of those questions then the real reason for your diatribe is that you are just jealous. That I was MORE lucky than you, because for most all of us an element of luck and or timing was involved.

Now here is an interesting post. Discussing luck, age, circumstances, getting hired ahead of others who may be more qualified... Wow! I'm impressed you actually understand that two people may have the same hire date and very little else in common. One can be a copilot 20 years later and another a 757 captain... So, how does that get reconciled with a seniority integration? Hmmmm. Is it just simply decided by what the majority thinks is fair? Hmmmm...

Nope, I'll stick with the fact that your hiring at Piedmont at the tender age of 20 had nothing to do with my hiring (with real standards) at AWA- therefore your hire date has nothing to do with my hire date. A couple neutral arbitrators see things my way too, btw. TTFN

 

[Zone5]

Is O Dell a West working East now?

Yes, according to Parker, he is an Airbus F/O on the East.


seajay

 

[prechilill]

Another interesting topic Parker addressed in the recent Crew News, the West is overstaffed with pilots, there isn't enough flying in PHX to keep the minimum required number of pilots "efficiently" utilized, even with the East flying, that the West has been doing, his words. West furloughs going to the East A320 F/O seat and nothing but stagnation ahead in PHX for the next few years.

A West questioner stated that new hires off the street are being told that they will be upgrading in 5 years. Where would that put current junior working West F/O's, on a DOH list?, 3 years from an upgrade?, who knows but it would be less than a new hire off the street, yes? It doesn't appear that the PHX operation is EVER going to grow on a stand alone basis. The way forward and out of the projected stagnation in PHX, is clearly the ability of the West to bid East.

The all or nothing bet the West has on the NIC ever seeing implementation, is becoming riskier by the day. Got to hand it to the West though, it's a guts position to maintain. Like they say, "No Balls, No Blue Chips", right?


seajay

We're all in SJ! You guys have PSA'd us with your high costs, nothing too surprising. I agree, the east network is an anchor to two once great airlines.

 

[prechilill]

Yeah I wish! I could have maybe avoided many years flying airplanes held together by bandaids and duct tape to get time.

Did you meet PI's poppy? Should have- you missed out!

 

[EastUS1]

..... had nothing to do with my hiring (with real standards) at AWA-

You've previously claimed that fully HALF of the "qualified" applicants interviewed at AWA couldn't even pass a sim check! Would you care to elaborate a bit more on exactly what degree of draconian "real standards" were in place there? 😉

I know that there are decent people and pilots out west. You fail to make any obvious case that you're among them...or that said people couldn't have done better for themselves than AWA. I assume, for most all of the good ones, that it was just an issue of timing induced, limited opportunities elsewhere.

 

[Pi brat]

Now here is an interesting post. Discussing luck, age, circumstances, getting hired ahead of others who may be more qualified... Wow! I'm impressed you actually understand that two people may have the same hire date and very little else in common. One can be a copilot 20 years later and another a 757 captain... So, how does that get reconciled with a seniority integration? Hmmmm. Is it just simply decided by what the majority thinks is fair? Hmmmm...

Nope, I'll stick with the fact that your hiring at Piedmont at the tender age of 20 had nothing to do with my hiring (with real standards) at AWA- therefore your hire date has nothing to do with my hire date. A couple neutral arbitrators see things my way too, btw. TTFN

With the logic in that post you just proved that there were many that are more intelligent, who were passed up for you. Enjoy your day pre and don't forget to contact me when you want that tour of AVL.

 

[Phoenix]

Legal told the BPR that Judge Silver's ruling is now "Law." Any of the parties can go to that court and ask for a stay, that would put everything in stasis until the Appeal is over. But we are told it would be unlikely for Silver to grant such a request. Who really knows?

If the Company appeals, it might be a canary in a coal mine as to how the AMR merger is going. If they do appeal, it will go nowhere with the Ninth. They have already ruled on ripeness and thrown out Wake's proceedings. The Company knows they are not going to get immunity from any court on a future agreement.

Greeter

Sure, so its "law".. The real question then is what can folks DO with the new law.. USAPA is free to hold their current seniority proposal and no one can prevent them from having it.

Any speculation as to the outcome of that position is just that.. speculation. Its a bit of a stretch to call any of her speculative statements to be "law" since the outcome is unknown...

Especially because the judge seemed to fail to mention one important premise.. she said that USAPA is bound by the TA, but that isn't constraining because the TA itself assures all parties that it is negotiable... Yes that is true but the reason it is negotiable isn't because the TA says its negotiable, it is negotiable by virtue of the laws governing union negotiating rights. Even if the TA failed to mention the rights to negotiate, the right to negotiate further would still be there.

The union changes its mind during a period of negotiations. That is the unions right.

 

[Pi brat]

We're all in SJ! You guys have PSA'd us with your high costs, nothing too surprising. I agree, the east network is an anchor to two once great airlines.

Wrong again. Kirby has addressed that. You live in your own little world, ignoring the facts from people that actually know what they are talking about.

 

[Pi brat]

Did you meet PI's poppy? Should have- you missed out!

Thanks, he did miss out. Dad's a great guy and loved by many at this company.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I agree. There have been many opportunities to work this matter out, but I don't see anything but an end game. There have been several roads we all could have taken to get this thing together and get a joint contract. Seems we are destined to be separated until other events overtake all of us.
I did see the crew news, and it honestly looks bleak for PHX with regard to any movement for a while. If that is acceptable to you guys, then keep pursuing the Nic. and I believe Parker will play dumb until he needs to move, and then he will at the speed of heat.
It is merely a bargaining position, and not binding. I have been saying that for years. There is no way you can force any union to take a mandated bargaining position they do not want with regard to seniority.

How could the west stop "pursuing the Nic"? Who represents the west and who could initiate, negotiate, or settle upon a different path that would ensure that USAPA and the Company would be free from any legal action from not retaining the NIC for any JCBA contract talks? If 1 or 1,000 west pilots "agreed" in whatever form you or USAPA might like to abandon the NIC, there would be no change in legal liability for USAPA or Management. Thus the Company has two choices, appealing to the 9th notwithstanding: 1) negotiate with USAPA and risk a substantial collusion liability from one or more west pilots (or east for that matter) in a future lawsuit or 2) refuse USAPA's request to insert a Non-NIC list because they consider the legal risk of doing so to be too great. The west pilots, in whole or in part, cannot take a single action to change these two choices USAPA has forced Management to make.

 

[Move2CLT]

That retort(and just about every other) was about as smart as your food choices are when you can't wait to deplane in your fantasy base CLT.

Aaaannnnnnndddd STFU.

 

[prechilill]

With the logic in that post you just proved that there were many that are more intelligent, who were passed up for you. Enjoy your day pre and don't forget to contact me when you want that tour of AVL.

I certainly will- and have a great day !

 

[Move2CLT]

Another interesting topic Parker addressed in the recent Crew News, the West is overstaffed with pilots, there isn't enough flying in PHX to keep the minimum required number of pilots "efficiently" utilized, even with the East flying, that the West has been doing, his words. West furloughs going to the East A320 F/O seat and nothing but stagnation ahead in PHX for the next few years.

A West questioner stated that new hires off the street are being told that they will be upgrading in 5 years. Where would that put current junior working West F/O's, on a DOH list?, 3 years from an upgrade?, who knows but it would be less than a new hire off the street, yes? It doesn't appear that the PHX operation is EVER going to grow on a stand alone basis. The way forward and out of the projected stagnation in PHX, is clearly the ability of the West to bid East.

The all or nothing bet the West has on the NIC ever seeing implementation, is becoming riskier by the day. Got to hand it to the West though, it's a guts position to maintain. Like they say, "No Balls, No Blue Chips", right?


seajay

You'll stagnate when we integrate.

Just a matter of time.