OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

We can move on now.

History proves you wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

Silver did NOT give the company immunity from the responsibility it has to the TA, which is what they were looking for. It is doubtful the company will expose itself to a breach of contract without the immunity it sought.

Didn't someone wisely say that we should wait for her final ruling before making statements as facts?

 

[EastUS1]

History proves you wrong.

History is of no concern to faith-based cults.

 

[cleardirect]

It is an internal union dispute. No judge is allowed to interfere in a unions' internal mechanism. No judge is allowed to tell a union what it may or may not propose with regard to it's membership. It is not binding. It is only binding between the employer and the union, or a Federal arbitration. Your only recourse is the DFR. Period.
Silver reaffirmed that very clearly.

So a federal arbitration is binding but other types of arbitrations are not binding. Very selective ethics swan.

The judge is reminding usapa of their legal duties.She is also because of the ninths incorrect decision can't give the company immunity from liability. with immunity the company is not going to touch anything other than the Nicolau award.

Read the transcripts and see the panic in Siegel of not getting an answer because of the ninths decision.

 

[EastUS1]

There is no East-West JCBA, hence no NIC. When and if a merger with AMR occurs and when USAPA and APA get to the issue of SLI, the TWO lists that do exist at LCC will be put on the table and the discussion will continue from there. If unable to reach a negotiated agreement (very likely) on the matter, an arbitrated MB solution (also very likely) will be reached.

That's the way it will be and as far as the company is concerned, the longer the process takes, the better. Eventually, a JCBA will be in place and then everyone can start sending more money to their lawyers to their hearts content. Chances of prevailing in the face of a ratified and or arbitrated JCBA, not so good, but in a country where you can sue someone for a bad date, go ahead and knock yourself out.

That's pretty much my guess as well, although it wouldn't entirely shock me to see some sli agreement with the APA that precludes arbitration. They will be mindfull of just how completely insane such can go, and are in the unfortunate position of being in BK at the present. Timing and then time it's self will tell the tale, as it always does.

 

[EastUS1]

....the ninths incorrect decision .....

So then; against the lowly 9th Circuit Court of Appeals' "incorrect decision"....well...we have your learned opinion, and of course; you have the word of the mighty OzAOL, so no reasonable concerns could possibly be present. Understood.

Didn't I mention faith-based cults already? 😉 Sigh!...No matter.

 

[Black Swan]

So a federal arbitration is binding but other types of arbitrations are not binding. Very selective ethics swan.

The judge is reminding usapa of their legal duties.She is also because of the ninths incorrect decision can't give the company immunity from liability. with immunity the company is not going to touch anything other than the Nicolau award.

Read the transcripts and see the panic in Siegel of not getting an answer because of the ninths decision.

Has nothing to do with ethics, yet everything to do with reality. It is like a Ca. Cop pulling you over on an AZ. Highway for speeding.It ain't gonna stick.

 

[Black Swan]

How does accepting the Nic by the company protect it from a USAPA or East individual lawsuit? No more than accepting DOH protects it from a Leonidas suit. Any party is free to sue. The easier target to defend against is Leonidas as it is neither the recognized bargaining agent nor is it well funded. Not dealing with the court recognized bargaining agent is the much more dangerous path. The company is well aware of that.

 

[cleardirect]

There is no East-West JCBA, hence no NIC. When and if a merger with AMR occurs and when USAPA and APA get to the issue of SLI, the TWO lists that do exist at LCC will be put on the table and the discussion will continue from there. If unable to reach a negotiated agreement (very likely) on the matter, an arbitrated MB solution (also very likely) will be reached.

That's the way it will be and as far as the company is concerned, the longer the process takes, the better. Eventually, a JCBA will be in place and then everyone can start sending more money to their lawyers to their hearts content. Chances of prevailing in the face of a ratified and or arbitrated JCBA, not so good, but in a country where you can sue someone for a bad date, go ahead and knock yourself out.


seajay

If that is what you and the east pilots are thinking you better go back and read the T/A again.

C. US Airways, America West and the Single Carrier may not use an integrated pilot seniority list prior to Operational Pilot Integration as defined in Section VI.A. below.

VI. Operational Pilot Integration
A. Except as provided in paragraph B. below, the airline operations of America West and US Airways, with respect to pilots, shall be merged no later than twelve (12) months following the later of (i) completion of the integrated pilot seniority list and (ii) negotiation of the Single Agreement provided that if by that date a single FAA operating certificate has not been issued, the airline operations, with respect to pilots, will be merged effective with the first bid period following thirty (30) days after the issuance of such certificate. The Airline Parties will make every reasonable effort in good faith to secure a single FAA operating certificate for America West and US Airways as promptly as practicable. The merger of the airline operations, with respect to pilots, under this paragraph A. is defined as the “Operational Pilot Integration.”

Seniority list is done and accepted by the company.

The T/A does not say a single agreement between east and west. It says a single agreement.

Can the MOU be considered a single agreement? It combines block hours into a single carrier and we start to work under the same rules and pay scale.

If the MOU is not passed we still need a transition agreement that would be signed by usapa for all US AIrways pilots. That would be a single agreement.

If you still want to argue that is not. We will become APA and will have a single joint agreement covering east, west and APA long before we get to seniority arbitration.

So any agreement that gets you off of LOA93 or a raise and pays the east and west the same amount is a single agreement and implements the Nicolau list.

It really is Nicolau or LOA93 for you guys.

OBE may very well be true. APA will become the bargaining agent and put an end to this for all of us. The APA has a term sheet and we will move to that agreement quickly after the merger. Parkers plan hinges on synergies of a combined carrier. He is not going let this separate ops thing happen with american.

 

[EastUS1]

How does accepting the Nic by the company protect it from a USAPA or East individual lawsuit? No more than accepting DOH protects it from a Leonidas suit. Any party is free to sue. The easier target to defend against is Leonidas as it is neither the recognized bargaining agent nor is it well funded. Not dealing with the court recognized bargaining agent is the much more dangerous path. The company is well aware of that.

Indeed, but nothing of the seemingly obvious ever suits the cult's beliefs.

 

[Zone5]

Silver did NOT give the company immunity from the responsibility it has to the TA, which is what they were looking for. It is doubtful the company will expose itself to a breach of contract without the immunity it sought.

No East-West JCBA, no obligation to implement the NIC, according to the terms of the TA. That's the way it is to this day and how it will stay until an East-West JCBA is ratified, which will never happen if an AMR merger occurs. Furthermore, if the merger happens, all of this NIC stuff becomes OBE. If the company knew the AMR merger were as likely to happen as it now appears, they wouldn't have even bothered to file the DJ as it looks like it will turn out to be nothing more than a big waste of money for them. They don't need immunity from a circumstance that turns out to be merely hypothetical. If the merger falls through, that's a different story as the potential liability would remain in question, assuming an East-West JCBA EVER occured.


seajay

 

[Zone5]

That's pretty much my guess as well, although it wouldn't entirely shock me to see some sli agreement with the APA that precludes arbitration. They will be mindfull of just how completely insane such can go, and are in the unfortunate position of being in BK at the present. Timing and then time it's self will tell the tale, as it always does.

I agree, the APA would not be pleased if they took it that far and got "NICKED"!


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

So then; against the lowly 9th Circuit Court of Appeals' "incorrect decision"....well...we have your learned opinion, and of course; you have the word of the mighty OzAOL, so no reasonable concerns could possibly be present. Understood.

Didn't I mention faith-based cults already? 😉 Sigh!...No matter.

Not my opinion. That is judge Silvers learned opinion.

As I started with the sentence, this is a hard case. It has been a hard case from the beginning. Hopefully, hard cases don't make bad law. We'll see. I could not, even though I would have liked to, to have resolved this matter to such an extent that everyone was immune from liability no matter what they did and particularly US Air. But in light of the Ninth Circuit decision, I am constricted from doing so.

THE COURT: Isn't that -- but, unfortunately, I keep going back to the Ninth Circuit. We all love the Ninth Circuit. Let me get that on the record. They are always right. They keep saying, just as you've said and so articulately, is that it is the future and they have – whether they have experience with it our not, they believe this collective bargaining process is so dynamic, is so obscure that anything could be agreed to and so, therefore, you cannot project it.

I will tell you, as everybody in this courtroom knows, I wanted this resolved today. I didn't -- maybe the exception makes the rule with the Ninth Circuit. I definitely didn't care for that decision. But it's the only one I didn't care for forever, but we're here. We're stuck with it and I've tried?

 

[Zone5]

If that is what you and the east pilots are thinking you better go back and read the T/A again.


Seniority list is done and accepted by the company.

The T/A does not say a single agreement between east and west. It says a single agreement.

Can the MOU be considered a single agreement? It combines block hours into a single carrier and we start to work under the same rules and pay scale.

If the MOU is not passed we still need a transition agreement that would be signed by usapa for all US AIrways pilots. That would be a single agreement.

If you still want to argue that is not. We will become APA and will have a single joint agreement covering east, west and APA long before we get to seniority arbitration.

So any agreement that gets you off of LOA93 or a raise and pays the east and west the same amount is a single agreement and implements the Nicolau list.

It really is Nicolau or LOA93 for you guys.

OBE may very well be true. APA will become the bargaining agent and put an end to this for all of us. The APA has a term sheet and we will move to that agreement quickly after the merger. Parkers plan hinges on synergies of a combined carrier. He is not going let this separate ops thing happen with american.

You are wAAy out in legal "never, never land" with that theory! But hey, why not go with it. Could I interest you in a handful of "magic beans" for that cow?


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

You are wAAy out in legal "never, never land" with that theory! But hey, why not go with it. Could I interest you in a handful of "magic beans" for that cow?


seajay

Never never land? Really. So in your mine a joint single agreement between US Airways pilots, APA and the company is not really a single agreement. That agreement would put all US Airways pilots on the same work rules and pay scale. That agreement will happen prior to seniority integration. But you don't think that means we are now combined.

Good luck with that.

Do you think that usapa is going to schedule any negotiating session prior to the merger to talk about seniority? There may be some MOU/ T/A talks but the company is not going to talk about seniority.

The company is going to get a contract done with APA and us soon after the POR. We would have a single agreement. We then go into seniority. The MOU says seniority can take up to 24 months.


With a single agreement for all pilots, the T/A requirement complete and only one seniority list accepted by the company what list do you think will be used without immunity from Silver?

My prediction. The company will not talk to usapa about seniority until after the merger.