OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

Communicating on a web board can be like Russian Roulette sometimes. You just never know... 🙂

Driver...

 

[end_of_alpa]

exactly! USCABA has logged far more time than ALPA under LOA93. What seems to be the problem? Is this what the expectation was? You don't think.....that....GASP,.....you all were LIED to do you!!!???

With moral compasses as Bankrupt as their twice BK "airline" I'd say its a safe bet. Well done JJ, Bradford et. Al. You've caused more career destruction than any of your pathetic management teams ever could have. Voluntarily spending a full THIRD of a 30 year career on LOA93!!? And still tilting at Windmills high on the DOH hallucinogens.

What do you care pilot wannabe? Go rethink your life. I pity you. Nothing to do with us and still (ph)ishing.

Get a life.

 

[cleardirect]

What do you care pilot wannabe? Go rethink your life. I pity you. Nothing to do with us and still (ph)ishing.

Get a life.

Will you also allay that statement to claxon. He has admitted not working here.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Will you also allay that statement to claxon. He has admitted not working here.

Yes. For the life of me, I cannot understand what interest anyone participates in this thread if they have nothing to do with our issues....issues that of all things, only directly affect us.

If our situation carries forward to other union activities elsewhere I could understand cursory participation. But yet I see no useful purpose of beating anyone over the head here...even though one may want to.

 

[A320 Driver]

I hear ya, I feel the same way about quality of life and stayed right where I am. Worked 4 days last month, which worked out to $400/hr of flying,

Interesting to note however, that for the first time, after 25 years of unbroken "service" at USeless Airways, I could have held a reserve C/P position on a 320/737. As pathetic as that may be, the NIC would make it much worse.


seajay


Works for me, I think the Trump and the Empire pilots should be DOH as should the West and there should be no widebody preference for the East. Nothing wrong with fences initially for some negotiated period of time in any merger but in the above cases those "mergers" are ancient history and TODAY it should all be straight DOH.


seajay

LOL!!!!!
Yeah, right! Which one are you? Trump or Empire?

Driver...

 

[Zone5]

So you admit you were wrong when you made the statement that you work under a DOH list.

The east list is not DOH.

No, but I will restate what I meant, if you want to split hairs. The seniority list I am on, as it exists TODAY, awards bid positions by DOH seniority, with a very limited number of pilots whose DOH was "adjusted" in the distant past.

I have already stated that I disagree with the "adjustments" which were made to the seniority of the Trump and Empire pilots and that they should on the list using their original dates of hire at Trump and Empire.

So, "technically" you are correct, the East list is only about 97% DOH and if I was in charge, it would be 100%.


seajay

 

[Zone5]

LOL!!!!!
Yeah, right! Which one are you? Trump or Empire?

Driver...

Neither, I'm an original "Rust Head" from day one. I meant every word I said about straight DOH. It can certainly be argued that USAir and Piedmont opened up the "relative" seniority "Pandora's Box" and should step up and put the "tooth paste" back in the tube.


seajay

 

[Phoenix]

One thing you cannot change is age! Plain and simple fact, trying to make up for it, or stealing it ," AINT RIGHT", the clock is ticking,.... looking at the "CHART POSTED COMPARISON", of positions by DOH it only gets worse here on out, the "NIC" is nogo, will never get ratified, ....

Worse?

It is all relative. The Left column will get better and the Right column will stay the same. ( The Right will only be worse in a relative sense as the Left gets better). I think we should be cleardirect about it.

The DOH on the Left column will continue to be more junior with each passing bid, eventually matching the DOH on the Right column because the Right will remain virtually stagnant, according to Doug.

As time passes, the DOH of both sides will be become virtually equal because separate ops forces favorable attrition, new wide bodies, and hiring, on the Left, vs. stagnation on the Right.

The DOH will become equal but the value of the respective positions will remain just as unequal as they are today. No one on the Left would be willing to swap positions with those on the Right now, and that won't change with time.

The Left holds to its current opinion and gets positive gains. The Right holds to its opinion and hopes to someday get a court to award damages, over an internal union dispute, in which they refuse to discuss for a resolution.

The Risk is all on the RIght, and it increases rapidly from here on out.

Caveats: The West is free to adjust the positions on the Right if they want to add clarity, especially if the want to add info on junior line holder DOH. The info is from the 2011 West seniority list and may be slightly different today. Additionally, the effects of a Nic bid would be slightly less dramatic than the current bids that are completed only with pilots in the Left column, rather than all USAPA pilots.

 

[crazystnic]

LOL!!!!!
Yeah, right! Which one are you? Trump or Empire?

Driver...

I was new hire Trump, 2/89, Why did I not go DOH? Do you want to give up a year on the list? as I did.
Trump should of been DOH and maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now...
hard to argue it both ways.

 

[A320 Driver]

No, but I will restate what I meant, if you want to split hairs. The seniority list I am on, as it exists TODAY, awards bid positions by DOH seniority, with a very limited number of pilots whose DOH was "adjusted" in the distant past.

I have already stated that I disagree with the "adjustments" which were made to the seniority of the Trump and Empire pilots and that they should on the list using their original dates of hire at Trump and Empire.

So, "technically" you are correct, the East list is only about 97% DOH and if I was in charge, it would be 100%.
seajay

I just have a different opinion, that's all. Empire wanted their DOH all the way back to the Navajos. Trump didn't even ASK for their Eastern DOH...not to say they would have gotten it. Moving forward, we are dealing with a current seniority issue, not re-writing the list. If you set that precedent, there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING to stop the West pilots, when they have sufficient numbers, to re-write the list again to suit themselves. While it can be argued that is what USAPA is trying to do, I would argue that efforts have been made to correct what many of us see as a grievous errors made by the arbitrator in NIC II. That is ongoing and the jury is still out.

I don't know what your seniority bracket happens to be, but I'm sure whatever place you find yourself, your suggestion would either improve your position or you are immune to the results of such a re-write. Otherwise, I just can't believe you would intentionally disadvantage yourself for principle.

Driver...

 

[Metroyet]

. If you set that precedent, there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING to stop the West pilots, when they have sufficient numbers, to re-write the list again to suit themselves. While it can be argued that is what USAPA is trying to do, I would argue that efforts have been made to correct what many of us see as a grievous errors made by the arbitrator in NIC II. That is ongoing and the jury is still out.

Driver...

So IOW, it's only ok to rewrite the seniority list if you are the sole beneficiary...of course being very careful to close whatever gap you might create for there to be ANOTHER rewrite that does not benefit only you. The Jury isn't out BTW. A Jury was already presented this entire situation. They crushed you. Make it ripe...which you can't...and there is no doubt it will happen again.

See, with posts like yours you make it just to damn easy to see the injustice and COMPLETE disregard for DFR. You want your own union, just not the laws that come with it.

 

[A320 Driver]

So IOW, it's only ok to rewrite the seniority list if you are the sole beneficiary...of course being very careful to close whatever gap you might create for there to be ANOTHER rewrite that does not benefit only you. The Jury isn't out BTW. A Jury was already presented this entire situation. They crushed you. Make it ripe...which you can't...and there is no doubt it will happen again.

See, with posts like yours you make it just to damn easy to see the injustice and COMPLETE disregard for DFR. You want your own union, just not the laws that come with it.

Not really. I just want some semblance of sanity and fairness in what we have. I have seen juries do many things. A few years ago, one in New York awarded a woman $1 million bucks for the loss of psychic powers after a CT Scan, so don't put all your eggs in that basket. I'm sure another kangaroo court like the one Judge Wake presided over will have the same result...overturned on appeal.

Let's have a trial where the NIC has to undergo the smell check, not barred from testimony. Then we will see what is what.

Driver...

 

[Zone5]

I was new hire Trump, 2/89, Why did I not go DOH? Do you want to give up a year on the list? as I did.
Trump should of been DOH and maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now...
hard to argue it both ways.

Absolutely agree! DOH should have never been messed with PERIOD. It should have remained an undisputed issue, across the board, for all mergers, at all airlines.

Negotiated fences, yes. 5-7 years worth of normal attrition (now that age 65 is no longer an issue) would take care of any "windfall" concerns, after which the march of time would treat everyone equally.

This whole notion about creating first, second and third class groups of pilots in a merger, based on type of equipment flown, status and the ever "popular" notions of "career expectations" and "fairness", has been used by countless airline managements to pit pilots against themselves to our everlasting detriment.

Close your eyes if you will and picture an airline industry where DOH is a given, a law of nature if you will, something that always has been and always will be a fact, like say, gravity. Before you ever get hired by any airline it is a given that DOH is the way it is.

Now ask yourself, what would the industry be like today if airline managements had never had the ability to set us at each others throats, across the industry. Hard to say for sure, but I think we could reasonably expect that lawyers would have less money and pilots would have more. Not that it's all about money, real pilot unity would be the norm, teamwork, solidarity and a genuine spirit of cooperation and mutual support would become pervasive throughout the profession. There would be healthy rivalries between individual airlines but the fate of each would be mostly dependent on the efforts of the team, think Southwest.

Would this DOH world treat everyone equally, I think it would and it would sure make things a whole lot simpler.


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

I just have a different opinion, that's all. Empire wanted their DOH all the way back to the Navajos. Trump didn't even ASK for their Eastern DOH...not to say they would have gotten it. Moving forward, we are dealing with a current seniority issue, not re-writing the list. If you set that precedent, there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING to stop the West pilots, when they have sufficient numbers, to re-write the list again to suit themselves. While it can be argued that is what USAPA is trying to do, I would argue that efforts have been made to correct what many of us see as a grievous errors made by the arbitrator in NIC II. That is ongoing and the jury is still out.

I don't know what your seniority bracket happens to be, but I'm sure whatever place you find yourself, your suggestion would either improve your position or you are immune to the results of such a re-write. Otherwise, I just can't believe you would intentionally disadvantage yourself for principle.

Driver...

You are starting to get it.

Yes usapa is trying to rewrite the arbitrated list. Yes usapa argued in court that seniority is always negotiable. Therefore you are correct that when the west has the majority we would change it if we did not get the Nicolau. In order to get the support of the new hires I would suggest placing the new hires senior to the old east pilots. After all majority rules would be the standard set by usapa.

You can believe what you want about an error. If we don't get the Nicolau we will correct that error. What go around comes around.

 

[A320 Driver]

Absolutely agree! DOH should have never been messed with PERIOD. It should have remained an undisputed issue, across the board, for all mergers, at all airlines.

Negotiated fences, yes. 5-7 years worth of normal attrition (now that age 65 is no longer an issue) would take care of any "windfall" concerns, after which the march of time would treat everyone equally.

This whole notion about creating first, second and third class groups of pilots in a merger, based on type of equipment flown, status and the ever "popular" notions of "career expectations" and "fairness", has been used by countless airline managements to pit pilots against themselves to our everlasting detriment.

Close your eyes if you will and picture an airline industry where DOH is a given, a law of nature if you will, something that always has been and always will be a fact, like say, gravity. Before you ever get hired by any airline it is a given that DOH is the way it is.

Now ask yourself, what would the industry be like today if airline managements had never had the ability to set us at each others throats, across the industry. Hard to say for sure, but I think we could reasonably expect that lawyers would have less money and pilots would have more. Not that it's all about money, real pilot unity would be the norm, teamwork, solidarity and a genuine spirit of cooperation and mutual support would become pervasive throughout the profession. There would be healthy rivalries between individual airlines but the fate of each would be mostly dependent on the efforts of the team, think Southwest.

Would this DOH world treat everyone equally, I think it would and it would sure make things a whole lot simpler.


seajay

Yes, it would be a whole lot simpler, but now that the genie is out of the bottle, how do you put it back in and keep it there.

Not an easy task.

Driver...