OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

I guess we need to deal with one thing at a time. We have 3 resaonable pilots waiting to be our reps in CLT as soon as we finish our petitions. That will go a long way towards fixing USAPA.

Driver...

Now you are saying that the 3 CLT reps are unreasonable? Yet less then a year ago they were elected because they were reasonable. Did all of a sudden these 3 guys become unreasonable or have they always been unreasonable?

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, you have been destroyed with every court case. The seniority issue has been cleaned up. The company has to take what USAPA offers. This thing is done.

Really!

The company has to take what usapa offers. Why? Because it is RLA?

If so does the company have to take pay rates or work rules usapa offers? what if usapa says to the company you will use DOH but pay the west pilots 330 pay. Does the company have to take that?

Why is the Nicolau a proposal but usapa's list a must take?

Does the APA have to take whatever usapa offers?


If this thing is done where is the list? If this thing is done why are there east pilots talking about compromise? If this thing is done why is the usapa lawyer saying in court it is not straight DOH and he hopes that we can work something out?

 

[cleardirect]

....Yet he hasn't called ucrapa to get this thing done... now that he has a "free pass" from the court.

.
This may be the most important statement of the day from Judge silver. It was her opening statement.

As I started with the sentence, this is a hard case. It has been a hard case from the beginning. Hopefully, hard cases don't make bad law. We'll see. I could not, even though I would have liked to, to have resolved this matter to such an extent that everyone was immune from liability no matter what they did and particularly US Air. But in light of the Ninth Circuit decision, I am constricted from doing so.

The east pilots repeat it all the time. Parker does not care what list he uses as long as someone is in the seat. He was hoping the court would make his decision and tell him which list he should use. If not give him immunity and he would negotiate with usapa. Here judge Silver clearly is NOT going to give the company immunity. she has also said that the company knows what list will not get them sued.

So without immunity and not caring who sits in the seat. Parker being the penny pinching numbers guy does he use the list that will not get him sued or use something else that will get him sued? usapa could win but it will still cost the company money and delay. What do you think Parker is going to do? If he does not care what list we use? Parker being cheap will run to the only safe harbor. Nicolau.

The east is crowing about win and being dismissed. That also dismisses the chance of the company avoiding liability.Looks like that ripeness ruling from the ninth has come back to bite usapa on the ass.

 

[Keroseneuser]

If the last 7 years has told us anything it is that DOH and NIC is never ever going to work as they stand now. Both sides can either dig a deeper trench and continue to lob shells over no mans land for years to come or they can sit down and figure something out that will work for both.

The pilots I have spoke to about the situation on both sides of the battle east and west all agree that we need to find a middle ground that can get passed by both sides.

From what I have seen the direct polar opposite sides we see on this board are not an indicator of the majority of the group east or west. both sides seem to want to meet in the middle and figure it out, get a raise and move on to the AA thing or whatever else Doug has up his sleeve.

It appears that the USAPA straight DOH hardliners are in the miniority as are the AOL NIC hardliners. Though one west friend did say that he keeps those feelings to himself since many of his juniorish F/O's would start an argument over the subject and he is tired of hearing it. But if given the chance to vote yes on a middle of the road agreement that put it behind us he would.

On the east side we don't seem to have that issue since most seem to agree that as long as NIC is tossed they can live with something that addresses both sides fears and protects both sides interests.

The question is can we get the hardliners to shut up and quit suing long enough to actually try to find something that will work? Probably not.....so that leaves the AA thing as the most logical point of exit to this mess.

 

[cleardirect]

Not according to Doug Parker. Plus, the east guy had the value of the US system that made Parker want to merge and thus saved both companies.

According to Doug Parker US Airways was going to liquidate in 2005. Parker did not start saying AWA was in trouble until 2008. AFTER the west started calling him on the unequal treatment. It was his excuse from giving the east all of the benefits.

 

[cleardirect]

Hey idiot boy a DOH always harms someone.....but define "harm" for us please. The older guy retires first, the younger guy gets to stay.
YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTANS THIS UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN HERE 25 YEARS
.Think about it dummy.

NICDOA
NPJB

Is the list ordered by date of birth? Otherwise your argument is worthless. There are older junior pilots. Idiot old man.

 

[luvthe9]

I guess we need to deal with one thing at a time. We have 3 resaonable pilots waiting to be our reps in CLT as soon as we finish our petitions. That will go a long way towards fixing USAPA.

Driver...

Hey Driver, please do tell us the names of these 3 fine individuals that will deliver us from all our problems, I presume you are to afraid to, right.

 

[luvthe9]

According to Doug Parker US Airways was going to liquidate in 2005.

You should learn not to believe everthing Parker says.

 

[cleardirect]

If the last 7 years has told us anything it is that DOH and NIC is never ever going to work as they stand now. Both sides can either dig a deeper trench and continue to lob shells over no mans land for years to come or they can sit down and figure something out that will work for both.

The pilots I have spoke to about the situation on both sides of the battle east and west all agree that we need to find a middle ground that can get passed by both sides.

From what I have seen the direct polar opposite sides we see on this board are not an indicator of the majority of the group east or west. both sides seem to want to meet in the middle and figure it out, get a raise and move on to the AA thing or whatever else Doug has up his sleeve.

It appears that the USAPA straight DOH hardliners are in the miniority as are the AOL NIC hardliners. Though one west friend did say that he keeps those feelings to himself since many of his juniorish F/O's would start an argument over the subject and he is tired of hearing it. But if given the chance to vote yes on a middle of the road agreement that put it behind us he would.

On the east side we don't seem to have that issue since most seem to agree that as long as NIC is tossed they can live with something that addresses both sides fears and protects both sides interests.

The question is can we get the hardliners to shut up and quit suing long enough to actually try to find something that will work? Probably not.....so that leaves the AA thing as the most logical point of exit to this mess.

Do you consider the company a hardliner? It was them that sued for this DJ.

As far as finding middle ground. Been there done that. Nicolau was the compromise.

The east moved from DOH to LOS during the arbitration and we ended up with Nicolau. The east now has moved BACK to DOH. How about if we are forced to negotiate the west moves to staple the east and we compromise from that position? because according to east pilots you always split the baby.

If as you say the DOH hardliners are the minority how did they just get DOH officially added as the only method of merger to the UOM? Only a MAJORITY can do that right? As a matter fact it takes 2/3 of the BPR to change the UOM. that is a lot more than just a minority hardliners.

No my guess is if usapa proposes anything other than DOH you will hear screams of protest and threats of law suit from the east.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Hey Driver, please do tell us the names of these 3 fine individuals that will deliver us from all our problems, I presume you are to afraid to, right.

RICHLANCECHIP or is that just a snack?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Do you consider the company a hardliner? It was them that sued for this DJ.

As far as finding middle ground. Been there done that. Nicolau was the compromise.

The east moved from DOH to LOS during the arbitration and we ended up with Nicolau. The east now has moved BACK to DOH. How about if we are forced to negotiate the west moves to staple the east and we compromise from that position? because according to east pilots you always split the baby.

If as you say the DOH hardliners are the minority how did they just get DOH officially added as the only method of merger to the UOM? Only a MAJORITY can do that right? As a matter fact it takes 2/3 of the BPR to change the UOM. that is a lot more than just a minority hardliners.

No my guess is if usapa proposes anything other than DOH you will hear screams of protest and threats of law suit from the east.

Well you guess alot!

 

[cleardirect]

You should learn not to believe everthing Parker says.

I was just correcting a statement.

When Parker says the west was going to file bankruptcy he should not be believed?

 

[cleardirect]

Well you guess alot!

How is that sale of the west going that you have been guessing at for the last couple years?

 

[eastcoast]

While immediately (and far too easily methinks) assuming a manifest advantage for the west; you perhaps do realize that you're actually quoting (in dramatic, bolded fashion no less) not the "law" at all, but merely propagandistic drivel from an AOL "update"...with "perhaps free" providing the peak in comedic slant...? IF that's truly your core source for evaluating ANY aspect of the legal scenario...well....a suggestion for some more independant thought might well be appropriate.

As usual my friend, you shoot off your mouth before engaging your brain, aiming at anyone who disagrees with you. A symptom of the peer pressure tactics that have plagued our group for decades.

Try reviewing my previous posts. Should be an easy search even for you, because you only have to go back about 3 posts. I said EXACTLY the same thing a few days ago, BEFORE the AOL update. Proof that unlike you, I draw my own conclusions and think for myself with an open mind and unemotional pretext. The fact that AOL attorneys draw the same conclusion after the fact only supports my original assessment.

But really, it matters not one bit what you proclaim on this anonymous forum. What really matters will be Judge Silvers actual ruling and clarification when it is released. Stay tuned for the facts. And try to keep your hair trigger in check.

 

[Keroseneuser]

No my guess is if usapa proposes anything other than DOH you will hear screams of protest and threats of law suit from the east.

Probably from a few, just like you will from some on the west on anything other than NIC.

The company does not care how it is worked out, they just want it worked out eventually.

The recall effort on the CLT reps from what I have been told is due to the fact that they seem to be unbudging from the "fight everybody" stance. Not to be confused with capitulating to the NIC.

My estimate is 75% of the total pilot group east and west is tired of the DOH NIC fight. They will vote for middle of the road if given the chance and once that happens you will probably see suits from both AOL and the DOH crowd but given the courts stance on this so far I don't think they will mess with an agreement that finally passed by a majority on both sides.

I am sure the company knows that such and agreement will pass. Doug knows if NIC is removed from the table the resistance from the east will dissappear almost overnight. And that is good for his AA deal.

I personally think all the risk in avoiding a middle of the road agreement rests on the west. If AOL gets to the point that their actions threaten to hold up an AA deal Doug will sell the west off to whoever comes by with a checkbook.

There are newhires coming straight to the busses on the east as we type this, have seen several out on their IOE's in the last month. The east list looks nothing like it did for that very very short period in 2005. In fact the east list looked nothing like the list in the NIC award even by the time the NIC was released in 2007. To me the handwriting is on the wall concerning the companies approach to this, west still has 40 people refusing to accept a recall east to the busses and zero movement in several years. The east side has hired just about every month this year and starting in January it will only increase to compensate for the retirements and training float.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. but in the mean time probably much to the dismay of west guys on here I lose no sleep over it. Even deadlocked at LOA 93 the east is still going to retire about 1800 in the next 7 years. So while an agreement with the west on a middle of the road agreement would net us all a raise. If they won't budge off the NIC only stance at least the east will be seeing more movement than it has in the last 20 years. While the west it looks like will continue to sit with 40 out on the street and zero movement.