OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

If the last 7 years has told us anything it is that DOH and NIC is never ever going to work as they stand now. Both sides can either dig a deeper trench and continue to lob shells over no mans land for years to come or they can sit down and figure something out that will work for both.

The pilots I have spoke to about the situation on both sides of the battle east and west all agree that we need to find a middle ground that can get passed by both sides.

From what I have seen the direct polar opposite sides we see on this board are not an indicator of the majority of the group east or west. both sides seem to want to meet in the middle and figure it out, get a raise and move on to the AA thing or whatever else Doug has up his sleeve.

It appears that the USAPA straight DOH hardliners are in the miniority as are the AOL NIC hardliners. Though one west friend did say that he keeps those feelings to himself since many of his juniorish F/O's would start an argument over the subject and he is tired of hearing it. But if given the chance to vote yes on a middle of the road agreement that put it behind us he would.

On the east side we don't seem to have that issue since most seem to agree that as long as NIC is tossed they can live with something that addresses both sides fears and protects both sides interests.

The question is can we get the hardliners to shut up and quit suing long enough to actually try to find something that will work? Probably not.....so that leaves the AA thing as the most logical point of exit to this mess.

Well said. There will, unfortunately, not be any "middle ground" solution, at least not until after the AMR thing is settled one way or the other.

Parker has talked on several occasions about how an AMR merger will have the "added" benefit of solving the LCC SLI conundrum, specifically through negotiation between the "three" pilot groups, followed by a MB three judge arbitration if necessary.

The NIC is the result of the East/West TA. The TA requires a ratified JCBA between East and West, to implement the NIC, which will never happen within the context of the time frame of an AMR LCC merger.

If the merger moves forward, there will be three DOH lists on the table when the issue of seniority is addressed, as the NIC was never implemented in accordance with the TA by virtue of a ratified JCBA between the East and West pilots. Assuming the three lists are not satisfactorily combined via a negotiation process, I suspect an arbitrated slotting methodology, taking into consideration, among other things LOS (as does current ALPA policy) will be the result.

How that would work out once all the equipment, seat position, base and time fences are defined by the arbitration panel, is anybody's guess.

You can bet it's not going to be pure slotting or date of hire and if done properly will piss off all three pilot lists, hopefully, equally.


seajay

 

[Keroseneuser]

Well said. There will, unfortunately, not be any "middle ground" solution, at least not until after the AMR thing is settled one way or the other.

Parker has talked on several occasions about how an AMR merger will have the "added" benefit of solving the LCC SLI conundrum, specifically through negotiation between the "three" pilot groups, followed by a MB three judge arbitration if necessary.

The NIC is the result of the East/West TA. The TA requires a ratified JCBA between East and West, to implement the NIC, which will never happen within the context of the time frame of an AMR LCC merger.

If the merger moves forward, there will be three DOH lists on the table when the issue of seniority is addressed, as the NIC was never implemented in accordance with the TA by virtue of a ratified JCBA between the East and West pilots. Assuming the three lists are not satisfactorily combined via a negotiation process, I suspect an arbitrated slotting methodology, taking into consideration, among other things LOS (as does current ALPA policy) will be the result.

How that would work out once all the equipment, seat position, base and time fences are defined by the arbitration panel, is anybody's guess.

You can bet it's not going to be pure slotting or date of hire and if done properly will piss off all three pilot lists, hopefully, equally.


seajay

Agreed.

 

[Move2CLT]

Probably from a few, just like you will from some on the west on anything other than NIC.

The company does not care how it is worked out, they just want it worked out eventually.

The company DOES care how its worked out. They not only want to avoid any legal litigation, but want to avoid the litigation that has the higher chance of winning. As we've only lost on ripeness, not merit, that would mean our litigation is the most threat to them.

They will vote for middle of the road if given the chance and once that happens you will probably see suits from both AOL and the DOH crowd but given the courts stance on this so far I don't think they will mess with an agreement that finally passed by a majority on both sides.

There is no middle ground. Its Nic or nothing.

I am sure the company knows that such and agreement will pass. Doug knows if NIC is removed from the table the resistance from the east will dissappear almost overnight. And that is good for his AA deal.

Doug also knows litigation awaits him if the Nic is removed which is why he's been trying so hard to get the courts to provide cover for him. He knows the Nic has to be used and wanted to do it with the courts backing.

I personally think all the risk in avoiding a middle of the road agreement rests on the west. If AOL gets to the point that their actions threaten to hold up an AA deal Doug will sell the west off to whoever comes by with a checkbook.

Absolutely and completely a moronic statement if there ever was one. Whatever east idiot came up with the sell-off threat is simply talking out of his ass. No one is getting sold off to anyone so give it a rest.

There are newhires coming straight to the busses on the east as we type this, have seen several out on their IOE's in the last month. The east list looks nothing like it did for that very very short period in 2005. In fact the east list looked nothing like the list in the NIC award even by the time the NIC was released in 2007. To me the handwriting is on the wall concerning the companies approach to this, west still has 40 people refusing to accept a recall east to the busses and zero movement in several years. The east side has hired just about every month this year and starting in January it will only increase to compensate for the retirements and training float.

Why would west pilots want to commute east and work under LOA 93? I'd refuse as well. And once the Nic is used, everything will fall back into place seniority-wise.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. but in the mean time probably much to the dismay of west guys on here I lose no sleep over it. Even deadlocked at LOA 93 the east is still going to retire about 1800 in the next 7 years. So while an agreement with the west on a middle of the road agreement would net us all a raise. If they won't budge off the NIC only stance at least the east will be seeing more movement than it has in the last 20 years. While the west it looks like will continue to sit with 40 out on the street and zero movement.

Like I said, once the Nic is in, everything will fall right into place.

 

[Move2CLT]

You should learn not to believe everthing Parker says.

Unless it suits your argument, right luv?

 

[Move2CLT]

Only in your mind!!!![sub][/sub]

And this on yours:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pgXeh95M2lU/SayFBN-rLLI/AAAAAAAAVao/2J0a81-jRzU/s400/047.JPG

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

How is that sale of the west going that you have been guessing at for the last couple years?

Well it is closer now , I know you feel it, so obvious!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Unless it suits your argument, right luv?

SUITS YOURS!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Probably from a few, just like you will from some on the west on anything other than NIC.

The company does not care how it is worked out, they just want it worked out eventually.

The recall effort on the CLT reps from what I have been told is due to the fact that they seem to be unbudging from the "fight everybody" stance. Not to be confused with capitulating to the NIC.

My estimate is 75% of the total pilot group east and west is tired of the DOH NIC fight. They will vote for middle of the road if given the chance and once that happens you will probably see suits from both AOL and the DOH crowd but given the courts stance on this so far I don't think they will mess with an agreement that finally passed by a majority on both sides.

I am sure the company knows that such and agreement will pass. Doug knows if NIC is removed from the table the resistance from the east will dissappear almost overnight. And that is good for his AA deal.

I personally think all the risk in avoiding a middle of the road agreement rests on the west. If AOL gets to the point that their actions threaten to hold up an AA deal Doug will sell the west off to whoever comes by with a checkbook.

There are newhires coming straight to the busses on the east as we type this, have seen several out on their IOE's in the last month. The east list looks nothing like it did for that very very short period in 2005. In fact the east list looked nothing like the list in the NIC award even by the time the NIC was released in 2007. To me the handwriting is on the wall concerning the companies approach to this, west still has 40 people refusing to accept a recall east to the busses and zero movement in several years. The east side has hired just about every month this year and starting in January it will only increase to compensate for the retirements and training float.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. but in the mean time probably much to the dismay of west guys on here I lose no sleep over it. Even deadlocked at LOA 93 the east is still going to retire about 1800 in the next 7 years. So while an agreement with the west on a middle of the road agreement would net us all a raise. If they won't budge off the NIC only stance at least the east will be seeing more movement than it has in the last 20 years. While the west it looks like will continue to sit with 40 out on the street and zero movement.

Yes so well said, and the disadvantage the NIC places on the EAST will be made up in attrition and EAST obvious growth!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

LOA 93 offers the "EAST" better fiscal gains than any agreement containing the "NIC" due to the financial hardships of the AIRLINE because of the negative economic impacts of the "PHX" hub!

 

[A320 Driver]

Hey Driver, please do tell us the names of these 3 fine individuals that will deliver us from all our problems, I presume you are to afraid to, right.

It's on the recall website for anyone to see. I don't have to post the names here. They are well known to most of us.

Driver...

 

[A320 Driver]

RICHLANCECHIP or is that just a snack?

Not even close Mutant Mustard.

Driver...

🙂

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Not even close Mutant Mustard.

Driver...

🙂

Name calling CUTE! Why don't you back it up with some facts!

 

[Pi brat]

According to Doug Parker US Airways was going to liquidate in 2005. Parker did not start saying AWA was in trouble until 2008. AFTER the west started calling him on the unequal treatment. It was his excuse from giving the east all of the benefits.

I think I gave a quote from him earlier than that, Ill check when I get home.

Funny how you take him at his word when it favors you and blow him off when it doesn't. With all the history we've seen do you really think AWA would have come through unscathed? If so you're nuts.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Not even close Mutant Mustard.

Driver...

🙂

Aren't you an EX CLT REP?! LS! Cmon!

 

[cleardirect]

I think I gave a quote from him earlier than that, Ill check when I get home.

Funny how you take him at his word when it favors you and blow him off when it doesn't. With all the history we've seen do you really think AWA would have come through unscathed? If so you're nuts.

Maybe, maybe not. But at the time of our merger that is all that matters. Remember the usapa C&BL talks about un-merged expectations. Not post merger expectations or what happened un merged 3 years later.

If usapa is going to follow their C&BL they better be honest with themselves about what un merged career expectations were.

Tough defense in court when the union wants to put 85% of the west below furloughed east pilots when the east expectations were liquidation.