OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Really AW? Were we in bankruptcy? No. Were we close to filing? No.

How long we're you guys in bankruptcy before coming close to liquidating? Years?

So give it a rest junior. We were no where near the street. You had one foot on it.

'First off, as to the … the stagnation of growth, for America West pilots since the
merger – what I will tell you is, and this is a hard thing to communicate to people but I believe
it with all my heart: If we didn’t do the merger with US Airways, you’d be in a lot worse
position. Frankly, I think as a 3 [year] F/O, you wouldn’t have a job."

I think that includes most of the AFO club, west division. You're welcome uhaul. I appreciate all the PMs thanking me, but if you are serious you need to do it publicly.

 

[luvthe9]

'First off, as to the … the stagnation of growth, for America West I appreciate all the PMs thanking me, but if you are serious you need to do it publicly.

Is Move2 misbehaving again it seems like he is throwing a tantrum today, remember no potty mouth son.

 

[luvthe9]

Sorry to say I don't think you're in the same reality that the courts, our company, and the industry as a whole are in. Say, "hi" to Peter Pan and the Lost Boys, there in Neverland🙂

Bean

Peter and his boys are using DOH these days with a huge hiring spree going on, to bad your not part of it. Could have been at least 300 or so upgrades for the west and maybe some widebody flying but that's not going to happen now. You made a bad choice to follow Ferguson and now ALL west pilots are paying the price. Sorry Bean you made a bad choice.

 

[traderjake]

You made a bad choice to follow Ferguson and now ALL west pilots are paying the price. Sorry Bean you made a bad choice.

Says the guy who without a merger will retire on LOA 93.

 

[traderjake]

The "industry as a whole"...? I have no idea about their sentiments, the supposed lock step unity they proclaim, or where and when they voiced such intimate knowledge and interest in the litte squabble.

I'll give you a hint......

USAirways - Trump Shuttle

USAirways - America West

Delta - United

Frontier - Republic

Southwest - Airtran

......none of which were based on DOH or LOS.

 

[cleardirect]

Peter and his boys are using DOH these days with a huge hiring spree going on, to bad your not part of it. Could have been at least 300 or so upgrades for the west and maybe some widebody flying but that's not going to happen now. You made a bad choice to follow Ferguson and now ALL west pilots are paying the price. Sorry Bean you made a bad choice.

When are you going to learn that your lies are so easily proven wrong? Where do you get this BS that you try and pass off?

Junior east EB captain Mowrey hired 5/85. All of 80 west captains senior to him by DOH.
Junior east captain Picard hired 8/87. Only 280 out of 1000 west captains senior to him by DOH. That means Picard would be senior by DOH to 720 west captains. How the he$$ do you figure that 300 west pilots would upgrade if by DOH east pilots are are upgrading 700 number about the senior west F/O?

By DOH it would be another 800 east pilots before the next west pilot would upgrade, including 450 FURLOUGHED pilots. So for the next 6 years the east would take every upgrade and ALL the attrition before the first west pilot would upgrade. While that may sound alright to you i assure you the courts will not find those stats reasonable.

 

[cleardirect]

I'll give you a hint......

USAirways - Trump Shuttle

USAirways - America West

Delta - United

Frontier - Republic

Southwest - Airtran

......none of which were based on DOH or LOS.

US Airways- Empire
AA- TWA
AA- Reno
Pan Am- National

 

[Beancounter]

When are you going to learn that your lies are so easily proven wrong? Where do you get this BS that you try and pass off?

Junior east EB captain Mowrey hired 5/85. All of 80 west captains senior to him by DOH.
Junior east captain Picard hired 8/87. Only 280 out of 1000 west captains senior to him by DOH. That means Picard would be senior by DOH to 720 west captains. How the he$$ do you figure that 300 west pilots would upgrade if by DOH east pilots are are upgrading 700 number about the senior west F/O?

By DOH it would be another 800 east pilots before the next west pilot would upgrade, including 450 FURLOUGHED pilots. So for the next 6 years the east would take every upgrade and ALL the attrition before the first west pilot would upgrade. While that may sound alright to you i assure you the courts will not find those stats reasonable.

Why do you think they call it the, "Gold Standard?" Why, because they take all the gold of course🙂 It's the pot of gold at the end of their rainbow. Unfortunatley, they will have wasted huge amounts of money chasing something they'll never get. Well, not with a decent contract anyways.

Some on the east will say the same about us chasing the Nic. I think it was more about defending against DOH and the furloughed pilots who wanted to go from the street to a senior position, than about implementing the Nic.

Bean

 

[luvthe9]

Says the guy who without a merger will retire on LOA 93.

No problem at all with that "Traitor". Sorry to burst your bubble. PS WE DONT WANT A MERGER!!!

 

[cleardirect]

No problem at all with that "Traitor". Sorry to burst your bubble. PS WE DONT WANT A MERGER!!!

Who is "we"? Who do you speak for?

Why not? According to you it is over. That gives you the opportunity to get DOH with AA. That would allow you furloughed guys to gain even more ground over what you have.

 

[Keroseneuser]

So for the next 6 years the east would take every upgrade and ALL the attrition before the first west pilot would upgrade. While that may sound alright to you i assure you the courts will not find those stats reasonable.

I don't know of a single east pilot that wants to take the wests attrition from them. Problem is under NIC the west takes most of the easts attrition. We on the east cannot help that the west has only a fraction of people retiring in the next 6 years as compared to the east.

Had this merger never happened and both sides survived (which parkers says is iffy at best) the gravy train of 4 year captains at the west would have been a distant memory by this point anyhow. I say it that way because I have heard that from several west f/o's "I was supposed to upgrade at 4 years" Well sorry but if you were planning on a 4 year upgrade on growth alone you are just nieve.

The only upgrade that you can reasonably count on is due to age out retirements at any airline. The single biggest issue the east has with the NIC is that it takes most of the massive east retirements coming up and give those spots to west guys. When somebody has been sitting in the right seat for 15 to 22 years waiting on the guys to retire and some arbitrator says "Nope now most of those seats go to another group" you are going to have massive resistance.

Protect the attrition on both sides east guy retires east guy takes the seat, west goes west gets it and the resistance from the east will almost all dissappear. BUT since we have had this conversation before and the west sees the east retirements as a way to not have to wait for their guys to retire, they don't even want to talk about it since their retirement spike does not come up until next decade.

A glaring example of this is Parkers statements in the town hall. Basically zero movement on the west in 2013, not even enough to get the furloughees back. While the east retirements are already causing a good amount of hiring. Thats why straight DOH wont work and NIC wont work. Either way gives something to the other side that they did not bring into the merger.

C and R the retirements on both sides and most on the east will be very receptive to other aspects of the list in my opinion. I would say the retirement issue is about 85% of all the problems the east has with the NIC.

 

[fatherabraham]

C and R the retirements on both sides and most on the east will be very receptive to other aspects of the list in my opinion. I would say the retirement issue is about 85% of all the problems the east has with the NIC.

Kero,

Your post is spot on. The west endless critiques of East C & R just don"t hold water.
Note they think totally acceptable for AA to impose them, but irrational of East to even negotiate them.
Greedy pigs often get STUCK!

FA

 

[traderjake]

PS WE DONT WANT A MERGER!!!

Another confirmation of how stupid you really are.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't know of a single east pilot that wants to take the wests attrition from them. Problem is under NIC the west takes most of the easts attrition. We on the east cannot help that the west has only a fraction of people retiring in the next 6 years as compared to the east.

Had this merger never happened and both sides survived (which parkers says is iffy at best) the gravy train of 4 year captains at the west would have been a distant memory by this point anyhow. I say it that way because I have heard that from several west f/o's "I was supposed to upgrade at 4 years" Well sorry but if you were planning on a 4 year upgrade on growth alone you are just nieve.

The only upgrade that you can reasonably count on is due to age out retirements at any airline. The single biggest issue the east has with the NIC is that it takes most of the massive east retirements coming up and give those spots to west guys. When somebody has been sitting in the right seat for 15 to 22 years waiting on the guys to retire and some arbitrator says "Nope now most of those seats go to another group" you are going to have massive resistance.

Protect the attrition on both sides east guy retires east guy takes the seat, west goes west gets it and the resistance from the east will almost all dissappear. BUT since we have had this conversation before and the west sees the east retirements as a way to not have to wait for their guys to retire, they don't even want to talk about it since their retirement spike does not come up until next decade.

A glaring example of this is Parkers statements in the town hall. Basically zero movement on the west in 2013, not even enough to get the furloughees back. While the east retirements are already causing a good amount of hiring. Thats why straight DOH wont work and NIC wont work. Either way gives something to the other side that they did not bring into the merger.

C and R the retirements on both sides and most on the east will be very receptive to other aspects of the list in my opinion. I would say the retirement issue is about 85% of all the problems the east has with the NIC.

I know you have all been told this and the urban legend is that there is this huge shift in attrition.

Look at the fact.

Over the next 5 year the east retire 787. The west retires 189. For a total of 976.

The Nicolau gives the east 2/3 of the upgrades. East 651 west 325. So a total shift of 136 upgrades over a 5 years period or 27 upgrades per year is all that is shifted from the east to the west. In exchange for those 27 pilots the east gets 90% of the contract benefits so stop whining about all the attrition the west is getting. It is BS.

When you adjust for the 25% inactive pilots on the east list and the fact that not all of your retirements are captains while 95% of the west retirements are captains it is basically a wash. You still end up with most of the contract improvements.

But hey if giving up tens of thousands of dollars for the furloughed guys to buy 27 upgrades a year is worth it to east guys that are already captains and about to retie on LOA 93. Go for it.

But stop the BS that the Nicolau take this huge number if upgrades.

There are no C&R that can balance those facts using DOH.

 

[Beancounter]

Another confirmation of how stupid you really are.

Hey, why would they want the company to become stable in the long run? They aren't far from retirement and just want to grab upgrades before they're shown the door.

Bean