OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

So a consultant tells you the truth and you hope usapa does not hire him????? I now see why the east is in the position you are in. No Lakefield did not just have not enough money he had NO money line up. There was no money to line up. Understand that point.

Now you have done it Clear.....

don't think for a minute any of the scabs are going to have a revelation 7 years after the fact.

They have been believing their own made up BS for so long,, it was Parella who asked the question of the consultants in the first place.


Trying to educate these morons on the facts of the matter is pointless...they do not care...they will make up their own facts.

A seasoned arbitrator told them point blank get off their position and they flat out told the guy FU we are going to get it anyway.

Eight federal judges have warned them...... does not matter...they think they know more than any judge????

completely delusional jackwagons of the highest order.

 

[nic4us]

When are you going to learn that your lies are so easily proven wrong? Where do you get this BS that you try and pass off?

He just makes it up.....

That is the scab way of coping with their miserable position.

 

[luvthe9]

Hey, why would they want the company to become stable in the long run? They aren't far from retirement and just want to grab upgrades before they're shown the door.

Bean

Last I checked the company was stable and hiring alot of pilots.

 

[luvthe9]

Another confirmation of how stupid you really are.

How's this merger working for you so far?

 

[luvthe9]

Who is "we"? Who do you speak for?

Why not?

Yes Clear there are quite a few that do not want to merge for the 5th or 6th time, why not, how about the past 7 years.

 

[Beancounter]

Last I checked the company was stable and hiring alot of pilots.

There you go again Luv, reading what you want to hear into things. Look again you'll see, "in the long run," in there.

Hey, at the time of the merger AWA was stable and hiring 20 a month, like you guys like to point out, in the long run we needed the merger.

Got ya🙂


Bean

 

[Keroseneuser]

But hey if giving up tens of thousands of dollars for the furloughed guys to buy 27 upgrades a year is worth it to east guys that are already captains and about to retie on LOA 93. Go for it.

Then you should have no problem with a C&R that says all east retirement seats go east and all west retirement seats go west. Since by your numbers it is only 27 extra seats that the west guys get that they don't get now per year. There we go, problem solved and we can all move on.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes Clear there are quite a few that do not want to merge for the 5th or 6th time, why not, how about the past 7 years.

The past 7 years have been the fault of the east. With AA they will be the majority.

 

[nic4us]

Then you should have no problem with a C&R that says all east retirement seats go east and all west retirement seats go west. Since by your numbers it is only 27 extra seats that the west guys get that they don't get now per year. There we go, problem solved and we can all move on.

Pass it in a Nic inclusive contract and see if usapa and the company get sued.

 

[cleardirect]

Then you should have no problem with a C&R that says all east retirement seats go east and all west retirement seats go west. Since by your numbers it is only 27 extra seats that the west guys get that they don't get now per year. There we go, problem solved and we can all move on.

The neutral arbitrator did not see it that way.

Are you willing to split the contract equally instead of taking 90%? The Nicolau and the marginal CAPTAIN attrition is all it would take for you to accept the Nicoalu? So in the end an additional 15-20 captain upgrades per year is all you want and the reason you and the other east pilots have delayed a new contract for 7 years and cost this entire pilots hundreds of millions of dollars?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Just so everybody is clear.

Today, as in right now we have 522 East captains retiring in the next 5 years.(Not including guys out on medical, the list came from the active bid for age 60 conflicts) Plus around 300 f/o's going (didnt count the exact number)

By contrast the west has using clears numbers 189 total retiring in the next 5 years.

Play with the numbers all you want Clear, but the fact remains that most of those 522 east retiring captain seats gets transfered to the west under NIC.

The numbers only get bigger as we go past 5 years. By 2020 the east loses around 1800 while the west loses around 400. By 2025 its around 2700 east gone.

And yes you guys do not even want to talk about it since you know most of the east movement goes west due to the fact that fully 1/3 of the east list is not even included in the NIC list you like to calculate from. Like it or not the bottom 1/3 of the east active list is not going to lay down and let you take what they have waited so long for, not to mention the middle 1/3 that was never furloughed but ends up getting jumped big time due to the simple fact that the 2005 date used by NIC represented a very very short situation and that even by the time the NIC list was published did not represent the east active list in anyway.

 

[nic4us]

I know you have all been told this and the urban legend is that there is this huge shift in attrition.

Look at the fact.

Over the next 5 year the east retire 787. The west retires 189. For a total of 976.

The Nicolau gives the east 2/3 of the upgrades. East 651 west 325. So a total shift of 136 upgrades over a 5 years period or 27 upgrades per year is all that is shifted from the east to the west. In exchange for those 27 pilots the east gets 90% of the contract benefits so stop whining about all the attrition the west is getting. It is BS.

When you adjust for the 25% inactive pilots on the east list and the fact that not all of your retirements are captains while 95% of the west retirements are captains it is basically a wash. You still end up with most of the contract improvements.

But hey if giving up tens of thousands of dollars for the furloughed guys to buy 27 upgrades a year is worth it to east guys that are already captains and about to retie on LOA 93. Go for it.

But stop the BS that the Nicolau take this huge number if upgrades.

There are no C&R that can balance those facts using DOH.

The fact of the matter is the Nic does not take anything from the east.

The entire premise is that compared to DOH the east loses. A complete pie in the sky daydream. It is no different than saying compared to stapling the east to the AWA seniority list, the Nic is an east windfall.. DOH was never going to happen, is not going to happen, and in the end the Nic (the only accepted system seniority list at LCC) will either be implemented, used in a future merger integration, or tabled for the duration of separate ops.

The east had no leverage to obtain DOH during the arbitration, no leverage after electing usapa, and certainly next to zero leverage today.

 

[traderjake]

How's this merger working for you so far?

Great.

I work 8 days a month when we have island turns and 12 days when we don't.

Why work when USAPA is making sure we don't make any money?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Pass it in a Nic inclusive contract and see if usapa and the company get sued.

I think we are going to see a list passed that is not NIC. Then as the east and a good chunk of the west move on we will get to see AOL suing left and right. The process will take years more, by then the list in a stand alone will be so unrecognizable from 2005 as to make it moot. And I think in an AA scenario it will be even more futile for AOL efforts.

As I said a couple days ago. I truly believe that AOL can ONLY hurt the west from here out. But it is a near given that we will see the suits play out. So we will all see the final answer in 5 to 10 years from now. Anything prior to that is a pipe dream and we all know it since it takes 2 years on average to do anything through courts.

By the time AOL gets an answer the east probably is not going to care since anybody it effects big time will probably already be a captain or retired. And there is no way a court is going to bump and flush 15 years of upgrades.

In my opinion the safest course for west is to accept C&R's that protect the retirements on both sides. As long as they continue to want the east attrition there will be no answer until the end of the decade at least, and the west list will sit stagnent.

 

[luvthe9]

Great.

I work 8 days a month when we have island turns and 12 days when we don't.

Why work when USAPA is making sure we don't make any money?

So stop your whining then, good for you. There's more to life than money.