OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

The question of a SLI between West-East, is indeed "negotiable", Judge Silver thinks so anyway.

USAPA does appear to be bound by the terms of the TA (thank you ALPA), the very same TA that requires a JCBA between the East and the West to be ratified before the NIC can be implemented. Is that going to happen anytime soon? I think not.

As far as delay is concerned, "Team Tempe" has been the biggest "facilitator" of delay so far. Totally understandable, it's what they are paid to do and yes it also achieves the goal of most East pilots (at least the ones I work with) of blocking the NIC.

If we go into a merger with AMR, it will most likely be without an East-West JCBA, that being the case, the only seniority list's being used today and which have been used since the AWA-AAA combination, will be put on the table and a three way SLI will be negotiate and or arbitrated. The "marriage" contemplated in the TA, will have never been "consummated" and will therefore be "annulled", as if it never happened, because in fact it never did. On what basis do any of us East or West, to this day, bid for anything?, trips, schedules, vacations, bases or equipment, it's just as it has been since the "money men" put his thing together so many years ago. Two contracts, two pilots groups and one paint job. That my friends is a fact.

There is no "contract" to vote on for many reasons, take your pick on who to place the blame on, it really doesn't matter. Personally, I don't give a rats ass about being in the left seat, I passed the point of letting my ego call the shots years ago. Pay me Delta F/O rates for whats left of my so called career and I will be a happy camper. Fence me in to the seat and base I'm in today for the duration and you can have your NIC.

I also think you are wrong about there only being a "narrow band" of East pilots opposed to the NIC.

By the way, your statement that, "The West Pilots can still successfully allege claims against USAPA for not fairly representing them.", means nothing. You can "successfully" allege ANYTHING in this country, all it takes is money, a lawyer and more money! Go for it.


seajay

To be accurate judge Silver said that the negotiations can be between the company and usapa not east and west. She also said that usapa had to have LUP not to use Nicolau.

Next you are correct that usapa is bound by the T/A. The T/A says a single agreement. It does not say east and west. So we don't have to have a JCBA between east and west. We can get a JCBA between east west and APA making a single agreement. Reading the term sheet a JCBA will be done way before seniority. Therefore implementing the Nicolau so no 3 way.

Yes the company and east pilots benefit from a delay. A delay caused by east pilots refusing to live up to agreements. Thus very good evidence of collusion between the company and the east. The company gets something, cheaper contracts. The east gets something all the benefits of the merger handed to you by east management. The west get screwed.

The marriage happened you can't deny that. We just have not moved into together yet. The reason we are bidding the way we are today. Because of east pilot actions.

you can wish for a fence all day long. But if we merge with american the only fences will be for the american WB. Otherwise all bases will be up for grabs.

 

[Phoenix]

It simple amazes me how you east guys can read something and completely get 180 degrees wrong. Marty is not begging to negotiate he is warning usapa and PS to use the Nicolau award. Or did you miss this part of the letter?

Who cares what strategy Marty is using to appeal to USAPA to change its bargaining proposals.. threats, bribes, roses and chocolates, whatever... at least Marty understands who has the authority to make changes to USAPA's proposals.

Now compare Marty's no to usapa's begging to negotiate. Note even PS acknowledges that Marty is telling him we will not negotiate.



It was the same with a letter to the PHX domicile chairman from the president. Please, please, please negotiate with usapa. Same answer as before. NO!

Look around for the final letter from Marty to PS. Pretty plain. NO!

Ok.

 

[Claxon]

To be accurate judge Silver said that the negotiations can be between the company and usapa not east and west. She also said that usapa had to have LUP not to use Nicolau.

Next you are correct that usapa is bound by the T/A. The T/A says a single agreement. It does not say east and west. So we don't have to have a JCBA between east and west. We can get a JCBA between east west and APA making a single agreement. Reading the term sheet a JCBA will be done way before seniority. Therefore implementing the Nicolau so no 3 way.

Yes the company and east pilots benefit from a delay. A delay caused by east pilots refusing to live up to agreements. Thus very good evidence of collusion between the company and the east. The company gets something, cheaper contracts. The east gets something all the benefits of the merger handed to you by east management. The west get screwed.

The marriage happened you can't deny that. We just have not moved into together yet. The reason we are bidding the way we are today. Because of east pilot actions.

you can wish for a fence all day long. But if we merge with american the only fences will be for the american WB. Otherwise all bases will be up for grabs.

Did you not listen to Mr Parker at the recent PHX crew meeting. You had your chance to work this out, but you waited till the court decided for you. Mr Parker was just the messenger that brought you the bad news. Franke ly you are back to what you brought to this merger.

 

[A320 Driver]

It simple amazes me how you east guys can read something and completely get 180 degrees wrong. Marty is not begging to negotiate he is warning usapa and PS to use the Nicolau award. Or did you miss this part of the letter?




Now compare Marty's no to usapa's begging to negotiate. Note even PS acknowledges that Marty is telling him we will not negotiate.



It was the same with a letter to the PHX domicile chairman from the president. Please, please, please negotiate with usapa. Same answer as before. NO!

Look around for the final letter from Marty to PS. Pretty plain. NO!

Honestly I'm glad you and your representitives have taken this stance publically. The 9th stated in their decision that it is not likely that a contract with the NIC, as written, will pass a vote. It is the union's legitimate purpose to represent the pilot group to the company with the goal of a joint contract. That purpose cannot be acheived, at least not now, with the NIC in place. So, IMO, it is USAPA's "legitimate union purpose" to negotiate a joint contract that will pass a vote. You and your representitives have stated that you WILL NOT negotiate. Not now, not ever. You are not leaving much choice. IMO, USAPA would committing a DFR to NOT propose something that can pass a vote. Now you are on record stating that you will only support a contract proposal that, even in the opinion of the 9th, probably cannot pass.

This could get interesting.

Driver...

 

[prechilill]

Honestly I'm glad you and your representitives have taken this stance publically. The 9th stated in their decision that it is not likely that a contract with the NIC, as written, will pass a vote. It is the union's legitimate purpose to represent the pilot group to the company with the goal of a joint contract. That purpose cannot be acheived, at least not now, with the NIC in place. So, IMO, it is USAPA's "legitimate union purpose" to negotiate a joint contract that will pass a vote. You and your representitives have stated that you WILL NOT negotiate. Not now, not ever. You are not leaving much choice. IMO, USAPA would committing a DFR to NOT propose something that can pass a vote. Now you are on record stating that you will only support a contract proposal that, even in the opinion of the 9th, probably cannot pass.

This could get interesting.

Driver...

So, you wouldn't take a Nic contract if your pay went to $500k a year?

 

[Ames]

Thanks..

As far as this APA member is concerned, there once were two airlines who agreed to binding arbitration. The arbitrator developed an integration. Game over.

Should LCC and AA merger, Nic it is. Anything else is B.S.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the final answer.

 

[Ames]

nic4us: The number of perfectly reasonable purposes that fit within a legitimate union purpose equals exactly zero, goose egg, nada, nil,....



It does indeed say it all. = Yours is an entirely faith-based cult. Have a good day none the less. 😉

Yeah, unlike the cult that believes it can overturn binding arbitration. Get a clue.

 

[Ames]

You should understand the Nic award allows every single AWA pilot - even the furloughed ones to hold a captain position on a merged list. Plan on a furloughed 2 year dude holding captain in dallas.

Here comes the bullshite parade!

 

[Pi brat]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the final answer.

Thank goodness! I'm so glad it's over! Why didn't a pilot, who is not in our union, and who doesn't work for our airline, come in and settle this earlier?

 

[Pi brat]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The East has already CLEARLY established its illegal intent for forming USAPA, and that is all the West needs to prevail in court.[/background]

If it is going to be that easy put your money where your mouth is. Have AOL go to the company and tell them that they believe they have cover and they will publicly state that and they will not include the company in a DFR. The west pilots do what they say. Tell the company to stop delaying and put a contract out so you can sue USAPA for DFR II and it will be done. Simple.

 

[Pi brat]

It was the same with a letter to the PHX domicile chairman from the president. Please, please, please negotiate with usapa. Same answer as before. NO!

Look around for the final letter from Marty to PS. Pretty plain. NO!

Clear, really? Can you not see this for what it really is?

 

[cleardirect]

Honestly I'm glad you and your representitives have taken this stance publically. The 9th stated in their decision that it is not likely that a contract with the NIC, as written, will pass a vote. It is the union's legitimate purpose to represent the pilot group to the company with the goal of a joint contract. That purpose cannot be acheived, at least not now, with the NIC in place. So, IMO, it is USAPA's "legitimate union purpose" to negotiate a joint contract that will pass a vote. You and your representitives have stated that you WILL NOT negotiate. Not now, not ever. You are not leaving much choice. IMO, USAPA would committing a DFR to NOT propose something that can pass a vote. Now you are on record stating that you will only support a contract proposal that, even in the opinion of the 9th, probably cannot pass.

This could get interesting.

Driver...

How many contracts votes have failed using the Nicolau? That would be zero. usapa has no evidence that a contract would not pass. So all you would have using the defense is OPINION. usapa's opinion that it would fail not a LUP.

In your own words "probably can't pass". You know what that is called? Not ripe because you don't know the outcome.If usapa wants to use getting a contract as a LUP they are going to need several failed votes and independent polling stating exactly WHY the vote failed and the answer is going to have to be 100% because of the Nicolau. Now the west would simply pull out the Wilson polling from 2007 and show the court that a Nicolau contract would have passed.

 

[cleardirect]

Thank goodness! I'm so glad it's over! Why didn't a pilot, who is not in our union, and who doesn't work for our airline, come in and settle this earlier?

Someone did come in who was not in our union and didn't work for our airline and settled this. His name was George Nicolau and he is a neutral third party we hired to do exactly that. Settle this. 5 years ago.

 

[Zone5]

To be accurate judge Silver said that the negotiations can be between the company and usapa not east and west. She also said that usapa had to have LUP not to use Nicolau.

Next you are correct that usapa is bound by the T/A. The T/A says a single agreement. It does not say east and west. So we don't have to have a JCBA between east and west. We can get a JCBA between east west and APA making a single agreement. Reading the term sheet a JCBA will be done way before seniority. Therefore implementing the Nicolau so no 3 way.

Yes the company and east pilots benefit from a delay. A delay caused by east pilots refusing to live up to agreements. Thus very good evidence of collusion between the company and the east. The company gets something, cheaper contracts. The east gets something all the benefits of the merger handed to you by east management. The west get screwed.

The marriage happened you can't deny that. We just have not moved into together yet. The reason we are bidding the way we are today. Because of east pilot actions.

you can wish for a fence all day long. But if we merge with american the only fences will be for the american WB. Otherwise all bases will be up for grabs.

I think your opinion of what would constitute a "single agreement" under the terms of the East-West ALPA TA, specifically an APA-USAPA JCBA, is wrong.

Spin it anyway you want, but I won't believe it, till I see it. Time will tell.


seajay

 

[Pi brat]

Someone did come in who was not in our union and didn't work for our airline and settled this. His name was George Nicolau and he is a neutral third party we hired to do exactly that. Settle this. 5 years ago.

Yet it didn't, but Ames thinks AAviator has.