OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

And Doug will be laughing so hard tears will be rolling off his cheeks!

No fair! That's not a prediction. He's been doing that since the east mec pulled out of joint negotiations.

Wanna wipe that smile off his face? Dump USAPA!

 

[nevergiveup]

Great post. You are absolutely right, the east is about to be PSA'd with a merger and the easties nefarious ways will split their union wide open once APA gets ahold of them. Just look at the past seven years at how completely screwed up east pilots are, this is going to be very satisfying to watch. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The true west colors come out!

 

[prechilill]

No, the NIC was a victory for you. It is NOT middle of the road for a large part of the East pilot group, no matter how you try to justify it or spin it.

Bad things have been happening on the East since 1989 mostly caused by incompetant management. Sorriest day of my life was the day USAir bought Piedmont with our own assets and our own money, then ran it into the ground. Thanks to Norfolk Southern Railroad also for putting us in play.

#### over.

Driver...

Ah there we have it. The Nic is a windfall because it failed to make up for the east's crappy career...
Thanks for your unbridled honesty- but the west would have preferred your liquidation over saving your job.

 

[luvn737s]

No, the NIC was a victory for you. It is NOT middle of the road for a large part of the East pilot group, no matter how you try to justify it or spin it.

That's an opinion grounded in fear and misinformation. The tyranny comes when that opinion is allowed to rule the day and bury the truth.

The truth is that the difference in upgrade time (between Nic and DOH) for the vast majority of the active pilot list is about 24 months, and that has been proven time and again. The furloughed pilots feel they should have been slotted as well and that is where most of the heartburn with the nic is. But the truth is that furloughed pilots are never counted in integrations over active pilots because there is no gurantee they will be returning. Dragging this out gives hindsight alot more credit than it's due.

 

[luvn737s]

Let's look at that. Let's say USAPA could change it's C&BLs tomorrow to remove the DOH language. And then they decided that to move things forward the would put out a TA with the Nic to see what the pilots really wanted. What would you approve of being sent out? The Kirby, with no scope? Anything Parker wanted to? What?

Well, if you'd wake up and smell the failure of USAPA, you'd see that they don't have the ability (or ironically the willingness) to negotiate with Parker since they traded their credibility for chest thumping. So, yes, absent unity (a word so distasteful to USAPA they can't even mention it)we will have to take whatever Parker generously offers and that irritates me, as it should anyone paying union dues.

 

[nevergiveup]

That's an opinion grounded in fear and misinformation. The tyranny comes when that opinion is allowed to rule the day and bury the truth.

The truth is that the difference in upgrade time (between Nic and DOH) for the vast majority of the active pilot list is about 24 months, and that has been proven time and again. The furloughed pilots feel they should have been slotted as well and that is where most of the heartburn with the nic is. But the truth is that furloughed pilots are never counted in integrations over active pilots because there is no gurantee they will be returning. Dragging this out gives hindsight alot more credit than it's due.

Actually, the furloughed pilots loss saved the east jobs, and in turn, saved the west's as well. You owe them a lot!

 

[nycbusdriver]

The Nicolau was the middle of the road solution.

Bad things have already happened to the west. Mostly caused by the east.

Were you present at, or have you seen the video of, the October PHX Pilot meeting with Doug Parker?

That female pilot whines incessantly about the bad stuff going on out west, while east new-hires are (rumor) being told to expect an upgrade to captain in 5 years.

Doug makes it clear that the opportunities for the west pilots are so limited that they must fly east on their trips, to cover traditional east-pilot flying, just to give them "busy work" and keep them off the streets.

Things are moving along at a fair clip for the east pilots now. Year 2000-hires are now wide-body F/Os. Once age 65 retirements kick in 2013, upgrades will move into high gear. Doug said not to expect furloughees back from the west before 2014. You folks LOVE to kick us with our LOA 93. But that female pilot showed your collective hand when she spoke of the miserable stagnation in the west.

Enjoy it. Enjoy the downgrades. Enjoy the 8+ years on reserve. It's your "LOA 93," and it's not going away any time soon. Assuming a stand-alone scenario, my guess is that Dave Odell will be an east E190 captain before the west sees any significant movement.

 

[luvn737s]

Or with a new contract including a middle of the road deal, pay raise and unity.

At least you realize bad things will happen to the west also.

Suppose you sent the whole deal back to a completely different arbitrator, say Kasher, to come up with a fair integration based on the original snapshot conditions. Would you accept his ruling? How about his ruling with damages for west pilots who were passed over for upgrade due to USAPA sponsored delay?

How about Kasher arbitrates a deal as of today (a complete do-over wet dream) but USAPA has to assess each east pilots to pay every west pilot $100,000 in damages due to their sponsored delay. Paid over a year, that would only be roughly $4400 per month, you'd never miss it!

 

[luvn737s]

Actually, the furloughed pilots loss saved the east jobs, and in turn, saved the west's as well. You owe them a lot!

Getting a letter saying your services are no longer needed and therefore not showing up at the airport is not saving anyones job. Sorry, Superman, hate to break it to ya.

 

[luvn737s]

The true west colors come out!

Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

 

[Move2CLT]

How long ago did you win that nic thing? How many $$ has it cost you?

How long ago did you vote on USAPA? How long have had the majority? How long have you been on LOA93? How much has it cost you?

That was fun.

 

[Pi brat]

Well, if you'd wake up and smell the failure of USAPA, you'd see that they don't have the ability (or ironically the willingness) to negotiate with Parker since they traded their credibility for chest thumping. So, yes, absent unity (a word so distasteful to USAPA they can't even mention it)we will have to take whatever Parker generously offers and that irritates me, as it should anyone paying union dues.

Unity is a problem. So we'd have to take whatever Parker said. We pretty much know what that would be so do you think it would pass? Or do you think both groups would rather just stick with the protections they have vs. a little raise that they would be locked into for another 5-10 years. Serious questions, not jabs.

I guess everyone was testy and not in the mood for my humor last night, I got a lot of negative votes when I suggested uhaul start a union. Maybe it was the name, of the thought of HIM starting a union, but I was only half way joking. You mentioned a card drive. We know there are a lot of people not happy with USAPA, so why don't they(you?) form a union like the USAPA guys did, with the purpose of including the Nicolau award in section 22. They (you) win and the fight is over. No appeals needed, no SCOTUS. The unity thing is still a problem, but our transition agreement coupled with the Nicoalu award just made that a fact of life. That would be a clear referendum of where this pilot group is.

 

[Move2CLT]

Unity is a problem. So we'd have to take whatever Parker said. We pretty much know what that would be so do you think it would pass? Or do you think both groups would rather just stick with the protections they have vs. a little raise that they would be locked into for another 5-10 years. Serious questions, not jabs.

I guess everyone was testy and not in the mood for my humor last night, I got a lot of negative votes when I suggested uhaul start a union. Maybe it was the name, of the thought of HIM starting a union, but I was only half way joking. You mentioned a card drive. We know there are a lot of people not happy with USAPA, so why don't they(you?) form a union like the USAPA guys did, with the purpose of including the Nicolau award in section 22. They (you) win and the fight is over. No appeals needed, no SCOTUS. The unity thing is still a problem, but our transition agreement coupled with the Nicoalu award just made that a fact of life. That would be a clear referendum of where this pilot group is.

My union, "hairPi", already has two new members. I may run with this.

 

[Move2CLT]

Were you present at, or have you seen the video of, the October PHX Pilot meeting with Doug Parker?

That female pilot whines incessantly about the bad stuff going on out west, while east new-hires are (rumor) being told to expect an upgrade to captain in 5 years.

Doug makes it clear that the opportunities for the west pilots are so limited that they must fly east on their trips, to cover traditional east-pilot flying, just to give them "busy work" and keep them off the streets.

Things are moving along at a fair clip for the east pilots now. Year 2000-hires are now wide-body F/Os. Once age 65 retirements kick in 2013, upgrades will move into high gear. Doug said not to expect furloughees back from the west before 2014. You folks LOVE to kick us with our LOA 93. But that female pilot showed your collective hand when she spoke of the miserable stagnation in the west.

Enjoy it. Enjoy the downgrades. Enjoy the 8+ years on reserve. It's your "LOA 93," and it's not going away any time soon. Assuming a stand-alone scenario, my guess is that Dave Odell will be an east E190 captain before the west sees any significant movement.

You will stagnate as we integrate.

 

[Keroseneuser]

my guess is that Dave Odell will be an east E190 captain before the west sees any significant movement.

junior 190 captain in the last bid is a Sept 2004 hire, one of the MDA guys. So it will not be long before Odell can hold it.

However the 190 goes artificially junior due to where it is (PHL) and the pay. Only guys bidding it are the ones that are either commuters anyhow, or live in the PHL area. The pay rate is too close to F/O rates on everything else to warrent a commute I guess.