OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

Pretty transparent, Jamie. You want an unqualified group of east pilots with extreme prejudice and vested interest to dictate to the west what our seniority is worth...in your eyes. Somehow, you think the USAPA Merger Committee (all east pilots?) are more capable of defining "fair", than a well-respected & highly accomplished neutral arbitrator...assisted by two neutrals picked by the opposing parties and with adequate financial assets to fund several days of testimony and deliberation. Yeah...right!

No, I think your last comment is about right. It will fix itself...in Federal District Court as they have abundently warned.

Awesome post

 

[cleardirect]

Your point is well taken. Unions have, for many years, been able to "end tail" groups with a so called "legitimate union purpose" even at the frowning of some courts and appellate courts have approved. However, the main LEGITIMATE reason we have as pilots is to integrate with objective measurable standards, the main one I can think of is SAFETY. Jeff Skiles was hired a year before I was. I knew him from a prior airline. But even Jeff understood that Sully was imminently more qualified to fly the aircraft in an emergency than he was because Jeff had very little time on the Airbus (I think he was still doing his hundred hours) and relinguihed (sp) the controls to him because of his time in the aircraft. Jeff's total time I'm sure was considerable but yet HE made a sound choice to let Sully fly instead.

That was good decision making. Would that decision have been made if the roles were reversed and Jeff was the designated PIC? The outcome may have been different. The pilot with more TIME in the aircraft had the advantage and the rest is history. SAFETY is a legitimate union objective and I know drives home the point.

If the courts don't value safety then so be it. But time will ALWAYS be the truth of it. Besides, when the Supreme Court decided

Ford Mtr. Co. v. Huffman, 3445 U.S. 330, 338 (1953) look at the year. At lot has happened since then, including deregulation. I do NOT believe you can "deregulate" safety. We've come to far and learned too much to reinvent the wheel. Its time for a post-deregulation ruling that takes safety into account, otherwise we have AF447, Colgan 3407 and many others all over again. It also prevents the same thing from happening post American-TWA merger problems and sets some form of SOP.

"Inevitably differences arise in the manner and degree to which the terms of any negotiated agreement affect individual employees and classes of employees. The mere existence of such differences does not make them invalid. The complete satisfaction of all who are represented is hardly to be expected. A wide range of reasonableness must be allowed a statutory bargaining representative in serving the unit it represents, subject always to complete good faith and honesty of purpose in the exercise of its discretion."

Really! You want to use safety as criteria for seniority integration.

I agree. Let's go. Let's put the airline that crashed 5 in 5 years against the safest airline with NO fatal crashes. I would love to make that case.

Where you go off the beam id trying to equate time to safety. You guys do have more time yet are arguably the most unsafe.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't know a -Janie but correct me if I am wrong but an 87 hire EAST was a CAPT long before, the AWA debacle, being an MD80 Capt in 91 I am sure the 87 hires were capts in at least 93 weren't they! So you "STOLE from the WEST" didn't know that spiked eggnog was a long turkey weeken tradition!

Was he a captain in 2005?

Did Dean Colello have a job at mainline in 2005?

 

[end_of_alpa]

You truly are clueless tab out what you (pl) have done, rationalized your self-serving actions just like a typical scab. You are what you really are and the reason you will leave this profession on 124 an hour is because you have demolished pulot unity with your self promotion. Enjoy it, scab.

Huh????

 

[end_of_alpa]

Really! You want to use safety as criteria for seniority integration.

I agree. Let's go. Let's put the airline that crashed 5 in 5 years against the safest airline with NO fatal crashes. I would love to make that case.

Where you go off the beam id trying to equate time to safety. You guys do have more time yet are arguably the most unsafe.

Give it rest. The learning curve from all the carriers is something we all read about in the NTSB reports. FAA uses time to measure experience and so do insurance companies. However, you may have point. We won't solve this mess in less at least less than two years. With about 250 new hires a year east there should be 1000 new hires at that point on the east and quite a few can be new Captains at least on the 190 they should be moving up over the top of West pilots.

Maybe those new hires have a right to their new positions as "Captains" while you enjoy your stay in PHX. We may be on LOA93 but they will be making better money on LOA93 than being out on the street.

Enjoy the holiday.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Awesome post

Awesome post is right.

We're unqualified, we're failures, we're scabs...etc, etc. so tell me, how's that move East working out for you?

Enjoy PHX.

USAPA doesn't represent you. Dave Simmons agrees with you. Now why don't you keep telling Szymanski? He's not listening.

 

[end_of_alpa]

As all pilots would...at least those directly affected. That is why it is properly left to experienced neutrals...Like Nicholau and his fellow arbitrators. Even fellow neutral Judge Silver deferred to him...as in her statement regarding arbitration by a neutral to be powerful evidence of a fair outcome.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean its not fair. Silver also mentioned that she doesn't care whether you like it or not.

I'm quite comfortable with leaving it to the neutrals...arbitrators or Judges. It is certainly beyond the capability of pilots to decide or dictate.

Arbitration does NOT solve intra-union differences and it never will. Look at Hostess, the bakers walked out and put everyone else on the street. No arbitration there. George Nicolau was NOT a "fellow" judge. RLA arbitration is between the company and the employees...not between employees themselves.

The so called arbitration is nothing more than a proposal and that is why I firmly believe that we argue this matter in court in front of Silver....who, BTW did not favor your position. Remember, count II? Retread the judgment. The order (discussion) is dicta....save your breath.

 

[luvthe9]

Awesome post is right.

We're unqualified, we're failures, we're scabs...etc, etc. so tell me, how's that move East working out for you?

Enjoy PHX.

USAPA doesn't represent you. Dave Simmons agrees with you. Now why don't you keep telling Szymanski? He's not listening.

Was in PHX crewroom the other day and Isom was there, more hiring than they had planned (only on the east) was mentioned, he seemed to agree the west had their chance to join in, to bad.

 

[cleardirect]

Arbitration does NOT solve intra-union differences and it never will. Look at Hostess, the bakers walked out and put everyone else on the street. No arbitration there. George Nicolau was NOT a "fellow" judge. RLA arbitration is between the company and the employees...not between employees themselves.

The so called arbitration is nothing more than a proposal and that is why I firmly believe that we argue this matter in court in front of Silver....who, BTW did not favor your position. Remember, count II? Retread the judgment. The order (discussion) is dicta....save your breath.

Arbitration has ALWAYS solved intra union disputes. You east pilots just did not like the outcome of this particular one.

Arbitration is used with individuals.
Arbitration is used between corporations.
Arbitration is used in the court system.
Arbitration is used under RLA.
Arbitration is now federal law to resolve inter union seniority.

Arbitration is supposed to KEEP the union out of court. As we are learning going to court is very time consuming and expensive. Arbitration is designed to avoid that by ageeing to a process and living with the result.

 

[cleardirect]

Was in PHX crewroom the other day and Isom was there, more hiring than they had planned (only on the east) was mentioned, he seemed to agree the west had their chance to join in, to bad.

Bogus!

You in the PHX crew first red flag. Second Robert Isom in the PHX crew room. I have been here a long time and have NEVER seen Isom in the crew room, ever.

Exactly what chance did we have that he agreed with?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I've heard of Prater in the crew room. I even saw it with my own eyes. Isom? Neither. Although he did grace our presence once at a domicile BPR meeting.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The Shuttle arbitration, like the America West arbitration, was based on slotting and ratios, not DOH or LOS.

So yes, the Shuttle and America West arbitrations are very similar.

The Nicolau award consisted of a consolidated seniority list comprised of seven segments,
plus a few conditions and restrictions.

The seven segments were composed as follows,
with all references to seniority numbers and
positions as they appeared on the respective
pre-merger October 1998 lists:

1. The panel placed the senior 1,292 US
Airways pilots in a block at the top of the
merged list. This group extended through
the junior Group 1 Captain. Arbitrator
Nicolau explained that the top of the
combined list consisted of only US
Airways pilots because Group 1 Captaincies
were “not within [the Shuttle pilots’]
pre-merger career expectations.” All
Shuttle pilots were placed junior to the
junior US Airways Group 1 Captain, for
the purpose of “leaving senior US
Airways [career] expectations essentially
undiminished.”
2. The panel then melded the next 1,928 US
Airways pilots (#1293 through #3259)
on an arithmetical ratio with the senior
67 Shuttle pilots. The panel found that
the Shuttle pilots brought Group 2 jobs to
the merged carrier, and therefore ratioed
Shuttle Captains with US Airways Group
2 Captains.

3. The next 1,436 US Airways pilots (#3260
through #4697) were blended by an
arithmetical ratio with 62 Shuttle pilots
(#68 through #129). Thus, following the
Group 2 Captains, the merged list
combined Group 2 First Officers. On the
Shuttle side, this segment of the list
included all pilots from the one immediately
junior to the junior Captain down to
the junior First Officer. On the US
Airways side, it covered the pilots from
the one immediately below the junior
Group 2 Captain and proceeded through
the junior Group 1 First Officer.....

1. 1,292 not affected.

2. 1,928 with 67 mostly ALL older than most of us. (This was the group I was in)

3. 1,436 with 62 mostly ALL older than most of us.

In short, most of those in shuttle are out by now or soon to be out. Those in the third group I believe new hires after the remaining Eastern pilots offered jobs but declined. Then there were "new hires" who are probably still here with integration dates with very little loss of time. One here already stated he lost ninth months. But it sure as heck wasn't nine years!

Even then the number of total pilots to bring aboard was 129 to 4,656. Considering the value shuttle brought to the overall operations it was most definitely a fair trade in any case and NOBODY complained.

Go figure, D.E.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Arbitration has ALWAYS solved intra union disputes. You east pilots just did not like the outcome of this particular one.

Arbitration is used with individuals.
Arbitration is used between corporations.
Arbitration is used in the court system.
Arbitration is used under RLA.
Arbitration is now federal law to resolve inter union seniority.

Arbitration is supposed to KEEP the union out of court. As we are learning going to court is very time consuming and expensive. Arbitration is designed to avoid that by ageeing to a process and living with the result.

Of the five you mention above only McCaskill-Bond and the Dispatcher "arbitration" are just the few I've ever seen and these are results of mergers.

You are right, we are in court and so far you haven't gotten what you think you deserve. Even more, you seem to think there will be a damages component. Good luck living that fantasy. As far as McCaskill-Bond, SWA/Air Tran didn't use it, don't be so sure it will here, the merger isn't "written in stone" just yet.

As I told you before and I tell you again the Federal Arbitration Act does NOT apply to transportation workers. In short, ALPA merger policy is unenforcable in court....see Count II in favor of USAPA in the judgment. We're not living with the result. We're living with LOA 93 and advancement and you're living with stagnation and corporate headquarters.

That is a simple accessment. Keep tilting at windmills, enjoy your life in PHX and have a nice holiday.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Arbitration has ALWAYS solved intra union disputes. You east pilots just did not like the outcome of this particular one.

Arbitration is used with individuals.
Arbitration is used between corporations.
Arbitration is used in the court system.
Arbitration is used under RLA.
Arbitration is now federal law to resolve inter union seniority.

Arbitration is supposed to KEEP the union out of court. As we are learning going to court is very time consuming and expensive. Arbitration is designed to avoid that by ageeing to a process and living with the result.

The first 3 but you fall a littlte short in your arguments, the 9th disagrees, Silver confirmed, and the RLA is very specific in " INTERNAL UNION DISPUTES" and so CAPTs lost their jobs on both sides so who stole whose? You see CLEAR you can't steal anything that wasn't yours to begin with!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Pretty transparent, Jamie. You want an unqualified group of east pilots with extreme prejudice and vested interest to dictate to the west what our seniority is worth...in your eyes. Somehow, you think the USAPA Merger Committee (all east pilots?) are more capable of defining "fair", than a well-respected & highly accomplished neutral arbitrator...assisted by two neutrals picked by the opposing parties and with adequate financial assets to fund several days of testimony and deliberation. Yeah...right!

No, I think your last comment is about right. It will fix itself...in Federal District Court as they have abundently warned.

Last I saw USAPA merger committee was a committee of one....Jess Pauley. The rest are lawyers (you know, third parties, impartial arbitrator, etc. etc.) Can you explain to the recalled furloughed West pilots why they're flying junior to third listers? I'll remind you why: your "legal" team ditched them in the arbitration (you know RLA approved discussion between the company and an aggrieved employee(s)) and USAPA had no choice but to withdraw the grievance WITH PREJUDICE. You know what that means.

You and yours screwed your own and know the furloughed West pilots have to live with it.....they're still living with it and now those with higher seniority than them have a legal leg to stand on when THEY sue for their seniority if and when this mess ever resolves itself.

Stagnation is your way of life, in PHX. That is THE INCONVENIENT TRUTH.

Enjoy your holiday in PHX.

Please