OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Nice spin in your favor regarding Judge Silver's ruling in favor of USAPA.
As far as the "neutral" arbitrators;

"arbitrator George Nicolau to mediate and then arbitrate the seniority ... Jim Brucia, a Continental Pilot for the East and Steve Gillen, a United pilot are "neutrals" ... the Union Operating Manual required ALPA to remain neutral in the seniority ..."

US Airways was in informal talks with United about a possible merger, United at the same time was talking to Continental. The Rice committee investigating the Nicolau was headed by Paul Rice, ALPA VP and United pilot. John Prater, president of ALPA and Continental pilot handed over the list.

Brucia who backed longevity and Gillen slotting are now on their respective merger committees with Continental and United advocating the opposite of what they felt in the Nicolau.

That's rich. Seniority, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder at ALPA. That's why the profession is in the tank.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Well, I'm sure enjoying reserve. Short call for four more days then off two. On call over the holiday for six days and haven't been called out. Had a GREAT thanksgiving and I hope those out on the road, you and yours, did as well.

I'm very thankful for my family, my job and the free time given to me by the contract. I anticipate the next four days to be uneventful work wise.

Getting ready to work in the yard this fine Monday morning.

Before I go, I would like to address Cleardirect's tag line:

"What is usapa’s legitimate union purpose; for anything?"

My question is, what is ANY "legitimate union purpose" for pilots here at US Airways as the world turns. Would the pilots be better served without a union? Since a BPR rep from the West is on here I would like to hear how him and/or his fellow reps feels.

Overall, does USAPA represent his constituents?

 

[Ames]

How can you commit to something that is a falsehood? Binding arbitration? It isn't binding. Had it been a fair proposal, you might have gotten a deal. You got a windfall, and did not do the right thing and rectify it. You should have been the first to realize you got more than you should have, and corrected it.

Not a falsehood, not a proposal, not a windfall. You eastholes tell yourselves that in order to justify your despicable actions. GFY. You sicken me.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Not a falsehood, not a proposal, not a windfall. You eastholes tell yourselves that in order to justify your despicable actions. GFY. You sicken me.

Is that a legal argument or just an opinion?

 

[Phoenix]

Arbitration has ALWAYS solved intra union disputes. You east pilots just did not like the outcome of this particular one.

Arbitration is used with individuals.
Arbitration is used between corporations.
Arbitration is used in the court system.
Arbitration is used under RLA.
Arbitration is now federal law to resolve inter union seniority.

Arbitration is supposed to KEEP the union out of court. As we are learning going to court is very time consuming and expensive. Arbitration is designed to avoid that by ageeing to a process and living with the result.

Well then it did pretty well in that regard. ALPA used arbitration as a copout and escaped liability for their little figment of representation, at least from the arm of the courts, if not from the membership. And that dear friend is an answer to the question, "Who has the most power over the affairs of a union?" What do you know "YOU are ALPA" was more meaningful than we ever thought!

 

[end_of_alpa]

You may be correct, but the courts (as the west has found out, since Addington was a west complaint) are still the final authority. Remember, it was the west who started the "time consuming and expensive" court odyssey. (Although the east ALPA MEC had already resorted to the court system to stop the Nicolau when the bargaining agent election dissolved the parties to that suit and made it moot.)

If the Nicolau arbitration indeed had the power of federal law behind the decision, the courts would not have heard any of these cases.

Excellent point!

 

[prechilill]

Major BS flag: while as a US FO, you might make your way downstairs, but for who you are - rarely welcome.

Always the LIAR, though. Who be you? Courtney? Come on, don't be a candy-butt. Step up and own your bad-self!

Dave

Portly Dorman... The human thumb?

 

[cleardirect]

It's obvious your legal education leaves a lot to be desired. Tell me, do you provide a lot of assistance to Posinelli?

Is it your opinion that a west pilot taking a position east is a recall?

When east pilots came west was that a recall?

Is it your opinion that the MDA guy were recalled to mainline?

How much do you think you know?

 

[cleardirect]

Well then it did pretty well in that regard. ALPA used arbitration as a copout and escaped liability for their little shared of representation, at least from the arm of the courts, if not from the membership.

usapa has been the bargaining agent for 5 years now. When are you going to let go of ALPA?

Yes arbitration keep ALPA out of court. But usapa was to damn stupid to understand that and has been in court ever since. A responsible union make reasonable choices.

Now take that next step and consider what a union that has been a round for a long time and seen a lot of situations will do with binding arbitration? Will they be like ALPA and avoid court by using the Nicolau or will they subject themselves years of costly litigation ?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Is it your opinion that a west pilot taking a position east is a recall?

When east pilots came west was that a recall?

Is it your opinion that the MDA guy were recalled to mainline?

How much do you think you know?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No. Can't recall someone who never left/furloughed.
4. I'm trying to be modest here, but with respect to you on a scale of one to ten I would be a ten and you'd be alphabet soup.

All my legal analysis has been backed up to this point by the ninth and Silver. What you got?

Tit for tat.
Now, how about answering my previous question with clear and cogent responses? Or should I expect "the mouth"?

 

[cleardirect]

So you are saying 9 wasn't in the FA crew room?

No I am saying Luv is a liar.

 

[Phoenix]

usapa has been the bargaining agent for 5 years now. When are you going to let go of ALPA?

Yes arbitration keep ALPA out of court. But usapa was to damn stupid to understand that and has been in court ever since. A responsible union make reasonable choices.

Now take that next step and consider what a union that has been a round for a long time and seen a lot of situations will do with binding arbitration? Will they be like ALPA and avoid court by using the Nicolau or will they subject themselves years of costly litigation ?

Sure, outsourcing the SLI was a brilliant scheme to avoid responsibility to the pilots that paid dues and was counter to the very notion of both unionism and representation. It was a scheme, but a profitable scheme.

 

[cleardirect]

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No. Can't recall someone who never left/furloughed.
4. I'm trying to be modest here, but with respect to you on a scale of one to ten I would be a ten and you'd be alphabet soup.

All my legal analysis has been backed up to this point by the ninth and Silver. What you got?

Tit for tat.
Now, how about answering my previous question with clear and cogent responses?

Is it your opinion that a west pilot taking a position east is a recall?

When east pilots came west was that a recall?

Is it your opinion that the MDA guy were recalled to mainline?

You would be wrong on all accounts.

When a west pilots goes east he does not receive a recall letter. He does not go through the recall process of the contract. The same legal standard as the MDA arbitration.

If you were correct that an east pilot going west was recalled. Then usapa allowed the company to violate the contract, colluded with the company and allowed east pilots that you say were recalled to the west, got furloughed from the west to go back to the east because the company said there were not recalled just offered a job.

3. Read the MDA arbitration. The one usapa lost. It explains that a furloughed mainline pilot accepting a position at MDA is not a recall. A neutral arbitrators award carries a lot more weight than your opinion.

Using your flawed logic if pilot A is senior to pilots B. Pilot be goes to MDA and is not furloughed by pilot A goes and sells cars he is furloughed. You would have a very good grievance for seniority violation since a more senior pilot was furloughed while a junior pilot kept his job. No grievance was filed. Read the arbitration. The mainline guy that went to MDA were indeed furloughed but not recall.

The ninth said nothing about the MDA pilots.

Silver or the ninth said nothing about if a west Pilots takes a job east.
Silver or the ninth said nothing about when the east pilots returned to the west.

Epic fail on all three questions.

 

[cleardirect]

Sure, outsourcing the SLI was a brilliant scheme to avoid responsibility to the pilots that paid dues and was counter to the very notion of both unionism and representation. It was a scheme, but a profitable scheme.

So for the last 50 years ALPA has been using the same "scheme" but no one has said anything. East pilots had been through 4 other mergers using arbitration and you say nothing. But now you call arbitration a "scheme" because you don't like the outcome.

A much more likely explaination is east pilots have no integrity and are doing everything you can to avoid THIS arbitration. Federal law has chosen arbitration as the method to settle seniority. Justify all you want. But arbitration is a fair process.

Unlike the one usapa has tried to impose. Where one side gets to make up the rules, chooses the team and assigns the refs.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You would be wrong on all accounts.

When a west pilots goes east he does not receive a recall letter. He does not go through the recall process of the contract. The same legal standard as the MDA arbitration.

If you were correct that an east pilot going west was recalled. Then usapa allowed the company to violate the contract, colluded with the company and allowed east pilots that you say were recalled to the west, got furloughed from the west to go back to the east because the company said there were not recalled just offered a job.

3. Read the MDA arbitration. The one usapa lost. It explains that a furloughed mainline pilot accepting a position at MDA is not a recall. A neutral arbitrators award carries a lot more weight than your opinion.

Using your flawed logic if pilot A is senior to pilots B. Pilot be goes to MDA and is not furloughed by pilot A goes and sells cars he is furloughed. You would have a very good grievance for seniority violation since a more senior pilot was furloughed while a junior pilot kept his job. No grievance was filed. Read the arbitration. The mainline guy that went to MDA were indeed furloughed but not recall.

The ninth said nothing about the MDA pilots.

Silver or the ninth said nothing about if a west Pilots takes a job east.
Silver or the ninth said nothing about when the east pilots returned to the west.

Epic fail on all three questions.

I see your point. East and or West gets "preferential" hiring. Still in seniority order based on date of when hired.

Again, as you well know, all of us on BOTH sides believe grievance rulings in favor of the company were wrong.

You ARE wrong from the perspective you sit in. Continue wallowing, but you never DID answer my question about your tag line.

How about it. Here I'll post the question again:

"What is usapa’s legitimate union purpose; for anything?"

My question is, what is ANY "legitimate union purpose" for pilots here at US Airways as the world turns. Would the pilots be better served without a union? Since a BPR rep from the West is on here I would like to hear how him and/or his fellow reps feels.

Overall, does USAPA represent his constituents?