Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[Bear96]

You have no real idea of east thinking at that time.

If by that you mean I can't read minds, that is true. All I have to go on is the record of the the East's behavior and positions taken during negotiations, mediation and arbitration. If that doesn't reflect the East's true "thinking," that is of no matter to me or to the process. (But let's hope for your sake USAPA's positions at the bargaining table are consistent with what the membership is truly "thinking" in the future, if you are suggesting there was a dichotomy during the Nic process. Surely the East negotiating committee during the seniority integration was getting its marching orders from somewhere to maintain a straight DOH position.)

We simply are where we are, and must go forward from here.

True enough. I was simply responding to the question posed.

 

[EastUS]

Surely the East negotiating committee during the seniority integration was getting its marching orders from somewhere to maintain a straight DOH position.)

What transpired within the hallowed halls of Alpo's finest was generally a full mystery to those of us on the line. Far too dammm many "closed meetings"..etc, for any to have a real clue as to what was ever going on, and passing any productive, actual information to line pilots was/is no strong point within Alpo's methodology. Said behavioral factors are among the biggest reasons I'm so well pleased at dismissing Alpo. It's hardly the case that any proposed list was ever passed for even membership consideration, much less ratification. All either side heard was ranted BS from their respective, and equally clueless, Alpoid hucksters...I mean of course "Reps" 😉 These collective geniuses held to utterly intractable postions, and bizarre arbitration resulted, which in turn, produced an unworkable disaster for all concerned.

We now have two diametrically opposed group perspectives...(thanks Alpo..thanks a whole lot)...and huge amounts of mutual ill will have resulted.

We also, now have an entire group in the west that's turning deaf ears towards the thought of any participation within the new union...and is thusly, although hardly by intent, affording silent assent to whatever USAPA does by that choice. This is no way for us to do collective business folks. For the west = get on the stick or stop with all the whining. Anythings's always possible in the future via mergers/whatever, but we've got to work with what's actaully going on regardless...as is always the case in life.

 

[767jetz]

Well, I would have. And I fly with F/O's every day who say the same thing. We would not have been happy - but we would have been satisfied. We would have accepted a true compromise and moved on. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

The problem is that you were unable to convince your elected MEC (your fellow pilots in control of your destiny) to accept something in the middle. They insisted on DOH and nothing less, and even threatened the negotiating committee with recall if they did not tote the line, even when Nicolau implored them to consider a different approach. (And before you blame ALPA for this, you first need to accept that these were your local leaders, acting on their instinct and disregarding your will, not National.)

So while you and probably many others would have accepted a true compromise and moved on even if you were not 100% happy with it, the truth is that those you sent to the table would not accept anything but DOH. And it is my understanding that the arbitrator does not have the flexibility to cherry pick options from both sides. He can only facilitate each side to come up with alternatives for him to consider. It is not his job nor his responsibility to come up with those alternatives himself. So if one side refuses to do so, he is left with no option but to consider what has been placed in front of him by each groups negotiating committee. The only thing your side gave him to work with was DOH, and he rejected that option in favor of the West's proposal. (He even as much as told your guys he would do it before he did it, and they STILL ignored him. Considering all of that, what outcome could you possibly expect, except what was handed to you?)

 

[EastUS]

The problem is that you were unable to convince your elected MEC (your fellow pilots in control of your destiny) to accept something in the middle.

No son..the problem was/is that Alpos' largely staffed by small-minded, arrogant imbeciles, seeking only to better themselves as petty little non-flying politicians that, like yourself, actually believe their own pathetic BS, and is additionally, a fantastic example of dysfunctional, utterly corrupt, and fully flawed structure 🙄

jetz: "And it is my understanding that the arbitrator does not have the flexibility to cherry pick options from both sides." Your supposed "understanding" of what an arbitrator can do's as fully flawed as was your "understanding" that pilots could/would change their NMB votes..after they were cast...Just another sad example of some devout Alpoid having zero actual clues...but, nonetheless, being very heavy on the presumptive opinions.

jetz"Considering all of that, what outcome could you possibly expect, except what was handed to you?)" From ALpo? = It's always been a case of "what was handed to you". I'm thinking that your folks at UAL (not any/all Alpoid shills of course) will eventually figure that out as well 😉

PS: What was "handed to you", in case you've missed it entirely..is a new Union as a result 😉

 

[Bear96]

And it is my understanding that the arbitrator does not have the flexibility to cherry pick options from both sides. He can only facilitate each side to come up with alternatives for him to consider. It is not his job nor his responsibility to come up with those alternatives himself. So if one side refuses to do so, he is left with no option but to consider what has been placed in front of him by each groups negotiating committee. The only thing your side gave him to work with was DOH, and he rejected that option in favor of the West's proposal.

I don't think that is correct, but maybe you know something about the process I do not, so forgive me if that is the case. What you described, "final offer arbitration," is not a widely-used approach and is not usually how arbitrations are conducted, although Major League Baseball uses it in a sometimes high-profile manner. Of course, parties can agree to that approach ahead of time, but I have not heard that was the case here and the "default" is usually a more traditional approach.

The arbitration panel certainly would have listened to what both sides proposed based on what their interpretations of the merger policy are, and used that input when crafting a list that stuck to the merger policy principles as closely as possible. (Of course, if one side is dead set against following the merger policy both parties and the arbitrator are bound to follow, and is suggesting something that totally ignores the policy, an arbitrator essentially has no choice but to disregard what that party is saying.) But I don't think this arbitration was done under final offer arbitration principles, although again I could be wrong about that, and so the arbitrator would certainly have been free to do what was necessary to achieve an outcome as consistent with the merger policy as possible.

It is interesting to think what would have happened if final offer arbitration had been used here. The East would likely have moved off of its hard-core position because the risk of such an unreasonable position would have been more evident, and there would have been less room for them to blame everyone in the world for the outcome but themselves.

 

[CactusFlyr]

No son..the problem was/is that Alpos' largely staffed by small-minded, arrogant imbeciles, seeking only to better themselves as petty little non-flying politicians that, like yourself, actually believe their own pathetic BS, and is additionally, a fantastic example of dysfunctional, utterly corrupt, and fully flawed structure 🙄

jetz"Considering all of that, what outcome could you possibly expect, except what was handed to you?)" From ALpo? = It's always been a case of "what was handed to you". I'm thinking that your folks at UAL (not any/all Alpoid shills of course) will eventually figure that out as well 😉

PS: What was "handed to you", in case you've missed it entirely..is a new Union as a result 😉

OK Dad.....beat it, your not worth the air.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The problem is that you were unable to convince your elected MEC (your fellow pilots in control of your destiny) to accept something in the middle. They insisted on DOH and nothing less, and even threatened the negotiating committee with recall if they did not tote the line, even when Nicolau implored them to consider a different approach. (And before you blame ALPA for this, you first need to accept that these were your local leaders, acting on their instinct and disregarding your will, not National.)

So while you and probably many others would have accepted a true compromise and moved on even if you were not 100% happy with it, the truth is that those you sent to the table would not accept anything but DOH. And it is my understanding that the arbitrator does not have the flexibility to cherry pick options from both sides. He can only facilitate each side to come up with alternatives for him to consider. It is not his job nor his responsibility to come up with those alternatives himself. So if one side refuses to do so, he is left with no option but to consider what has been placed in front of him by each groups negotiating committee. The only thing your side gave him to work with was DOH, and he rejected that option in favor of the West's proposal. (He even as much as told your guys he would do it before he did it, and they STILL ignored him. Considering all of that, what outcome could you possibly expect, except what was handed to you?)

I did not realize that the arbitrator was so shackled in the latitude he could employ in arriving at a truly fair and equitable award. This limitation on his authority was never communicated to me in any venue that I can recall - nor by any party, local or ALPA national, or the arbitrator himself. If I missed that then you can accuse me of being ignorant of the process.

And so it became a process-centric excercise that was based on a flawed premise. Neither Prater nor Nicolau was willing to excercise any authority beyond the limited scope you ascribe to them.

No leadership=failed result.

 

[EastUS]

The East would likely have moved off of its hard-core position because the risk of such an unreasonable position would have been more evident, and there would have been less room for them to blame everyone in the world for the outcome but themselves.

Again Bear..any supposed, collective assumptions per "themselves"...entirely avoids the actual truth of the matter, in that this was all done by a cloistered little panel that scarcely gave the time of day to the line pilots. Any/all fantasies attendant to group support for Alpoid Reps, with the seemingly fair notion that they could have been recalled..must fully fly in the face of recent events, wherein it proved impossible to get a recall motion even acknowledged in CLT, and a wholesale obliteration of line pilots' wishes was made manifest via the extraction/replacement of the PHL council...without the least bit of membership consent. One could just as readilly assign ALL blame for USA policy to all Americans everywhere...and I've noted in long ago posted conversation that you feel no personal need to offer acclaim for Bush, et al.

 

[Bear96]

Again Bear..any supposed, collective assumptions per "themselves"...entirely avoids the actual truth of the matter, in that this was all done by a cloistered little panel that scarcely gave the time of day to the line pilots. Any/all fantasies attendant to group support for Alpoid Reps, with the seemingly fair notion that they could have been recalled..must fully fly in the face of recent events, wherein it proved impossible to get a recall motion even acknowledged in CLT, and a wholesale obliteration of line pilots' wishes was made manifest via the extraction/replacement of the PHL council...without the least bit of membership consent. One could just as readilly assign ALL blame for USA policy to all Americans everywhere...and I've noted in long ago posted conversation that you feel no personal need to offer acclaim for Bush, et al.

That was completely incoherent. Could you translate that concisely into the actual bottom-line point you are trying to make? (Although I suspect it is something profound and innovative, like "ALPA sucks.")

 

[EastUS]

That was completely incoherent. Could you translate that concisely into the actual bottom-line point you are trying to make? (Although I suspect it is something profound and innovative, like "ALPA sucks.")

Hmm...properly simplified for the audience :blink: = What transpired wasn't the doing of the east line pilots, nor did we have any actual control over the events.

"ALPA sucks." Seems self-evident, but thanks for highlighting it.

 

[Leonidas]

Her's Leonidas llc latest update. I am not part of leonidas llc, it is a coincidence that my handle is leonidas, although I do donate 2% of my salary to leonidas and awappa I am not part of either leadership.



"The Leonidas LLC Board of Directors is pleased to announce a change in our primary legal counsel. We have recently retained the law firm of Shughart, Thompson and Kilroy P.C., and Mr. Marty Harper as our lead counsel. We have been in the process of making an orderly transition into this new firm since mid-March. As you will see, Mr. Harper and his firm are very well versed in matters such as those faced by the AWA pilots.

Mr. Harper is based in Phoenix and is ably assisted by Dr. Andrew Jacob, a former cardiologist who is now an attorney. These gentlemen have extensive contract and labor relations experience. Marty was, in fact, the lead attorney in the O'Neill versus ALPA case from the early 90's. If you recall, this is one of two cases which USAPA relies heavily to claim that it can reorder the seniority list "within a wide range of reasonableness." Additionally, Mr. Harper was involved in the litigation of the Rakestraw case; another seminal case relied upon by USAPA.

We have carefully examined the rhetoric coming from USAPA’s counsel. To date, Mr. Seham has only weighed the robustness of USAPA’s seniority integration proposal by only considering an equitable claim by West pilots. It appears that USAPA’s counsel believes that the West’s only cause of action lies with a breach of USAPA’s Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) – a claim which Mr. Seham believes would be very difficult for the West pilots to prevail. Without addressing the efficacy of a West DFR action against USAPA, Leonidas’s attention is focused on legal remedies. In other words, Leonidas is looking directly at the question of whether USAPA can accomplish their de facto cram down without offending Federal statutes or regulations.

Through the diligent research efforts of Mr. Harper and Dr. Jacob, it is clear that several important issues have been ignored by USAPA. Although we at Leonidas can only speculate why USAPA has not addressed these legal issues publicly, we believe that either: (1) Mr. Seham is not fully aware of the legal remedies available to individual West pilots; or (2) Mr. Seham is aware but is hopeful that no one representing West pilots would discover those remedies. What we do know is that USAPA has conveniently over-simplified the legal landscape that they now operate in as our new union. The matter before East and West is largely written in black and white; the West does not need to solely rely on equitable arguments from prior case law.

Leonidas LLC will continue to closely monitor the actions of USAPA. Our philosophy has been that the West pilots have not been fully and adequately served by ALPA National, and based upon the published information from USAPA, it is also doubtful that the West pilots will be fairly and adequately represented by USAPA. We, along with the help of Marty Harper and Andy Jacob, and the entire legal team at Shughart, Thompson and Kilroy stand ready to vigorously prosecute equitable and legal transgressions stemming from the actions, or lack thereof, by our new collective bargaining agent."

 

[prechilill]

I'm a little surprised Leonidas published this full mouth extraction of Seaham's misguided case guidance to the USAPA sheeple. Interesting to say the least. I figured Leonidas was just going to put on the Maracopa County court docket unannounced and let USAPA's incompetent law firm scramble a little. Watching the imminent legal slaughter of the below-average USAPA law firm will be entertaining.

 

[luv2fly]

PS: What was "handed to you", in case you've missed it entirely..is a new Union as a result 😉

Is the Nic award now somehow voided?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Leonidas LLC will continue to closely monitor the actions of USAPA. Our philosophy has been that the West pilots have not been fully and adequately served by ALPA National, and based upon the published information from USAPA, it is also doubtful that the West pilots will be fairly and adequately represented by USAPA. We, along with the help of Marty Harper and Andy Jacob, and the entire legal team at Shughart, Thompson and Kilroy stand ready to vigorously prosecute equitable and legal transgressions stemming from the actions, or lack thereof, by our new collective bargaining agent."

Monitoring the actions of USAPA is fine. Engaging and participating would be even better. Committee positions need to be filled, negotiations with management are imminent. Such participation costs your group nothing.

 

[Bear96]

Hmm...properly simplified for the audience :blink: = What transpired wasn't the doing of the east line pilots, nor did we have any actual control over the events.

Thanks. That's better. My second guess after "ALPA sucks" was that you were thinking of how to word "It's not our fault; we take no responsibility for anything that happened" in yet another way.

So now you are saying the line pilots did NOT want a strict DOH approach? That is quite a flip-flop. I don't recall many posts here from any East line pilots during the process stating that, or criticizing the ALPA negotiators for the position they were taking. Did I miss them?

What you say is interesting, because if the East line pilots did not want their negotiators going for a strict DOH approach during the seniority merger negotiations and arbitration, what explains their anger leading to the birth of USAPA when East did not get DOH?