Results are out: F/A seniority Intergration team

[Dignity]

I will tell you this. The word on the line (and on the NOWAYAFA Facebook site as of today) is that if AFA is voted in, the Adays will disappear and jr. f/a's will go back to being on straight reserve. (A scare tactic the NO WAY'ers are using...funny, for a group that tells AFA to stop the scare tactics, they sure have a bag of their own.)

to me, that could be viewed as a scare tactic based on nothing more than simply an opinion and rumor...(and there appears to be quite a few ones out there)

we are not a closed minded group, I do not understand why some assume we would never consider any other type of program or another way at all...that does not seem very considerate to imply we are not fair(when that is not the case at all)

these ideas of "someone told me this" or "I heard they want to do that" are nothing more than rumor and to me, not the most responsible thing to do..

reserve reform is absolutely necessary in this industry..straight reserve is becoming decades long and an archaic system in place.

just because it was done one way in the past.. does not necessarily mean it must always be that way..
the idea would be to make it better for the next generation.. so they do not necessarily have to endure straight reserve like most of us..

I honestly do not really understand the program at all (since it is so new to most of us) but it appears a turning point actually addressing a much needed issue.

One friend believes because NW jr f/a's want 3 Adays (naturally) instead of full month reserve, the vote may fail to pass.
Now, that being said..what percentage of your total f/a population is on reserve?

more than likely the vote is going right down the middle, and to some, I am sure the choice of either straight reserve or Aday may play a factor in their decision..as some focused solely on seniority others will focus solely on reserve..

Luke, our new bidding system in place seems to award most of all available trips, I honestly do not have an actual percentage as it seems to change.. based on the need for at the bases.. monthly.

 

[Dignity]

This is the way it is for a "Pre-Merger DL f/A"

that is the way it should be going forward.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

to me, that could be viewed as a scare tactic based on nothing more than simply an opinion and rumor...(and there appears to be quite a few ones out there)

reserve reform is absolutely necessary in this industry..straight reserve is becoming decades long and an archaic system in place.

just because it was done one way in the past.. does not necessarily mean it must always be that way..
the idea would be to make it better for the next generation.. so they do not necessarily have to endure straight reserve like most of us..

I honestly do not really understand the program at all (since it is so new to most of us) but it appears a turning point actually addressing a much needed issue.

I agree with you that the old, traditional reserve program is antiquated and should be reformed to a degree. But in the context of my other posting, do you see line-holding f/a's at NW being willing to sit reserve for 3 days a month especially commuters who will have to fly in, get a hotel room and/or 'crash pad' and keep clicking "refresh" on their computer for trips to come avail on open time and/or wait to be called?
In your larger bases like DTW and MSP, the Adays would probably be more workable/flexible because of the greater selection of trips and larger population of f/as. (like our NYC and ATL bases)
However....contrary to what they are saying on Facebook, if you are in a more medium to small-sized base like SLC or LAX, the Adays are NOT that flexible and there is NOT that much on the Open time board to pick up from. So...you end up waiting for the phone to ring just like when you were a 20-something yr.old new hire.

 

[Dignity]

But in the context of my other posting, do you see line-holding f/a's at NW being willing to sit reserve for 3 days a month especially commuters who will have to fly in, get a hotel room and/or 'crash pad'

honestly I do not know how most would feel about this issue without a survey, its hard to assume when a group is so large.. some yes are absolutely horrified the moment "reserve" is mentioned..cannot blame them...especially when so many commute.

I actually spoke to someone regarding the possibility of being on reserve at a satellite base(when a line could be available at a hub) this is exactly what I was told in so many words..."if I can be at home and not commute its not so much an issue"..

so it just depends on the individual, but again its difficult to gage by just a conversation here or there.. some will want this program, some will be accepting, some will absolutely view this as "I dont even think so"..

In your larger bases like DTW and MSP, the Adays would probably be more workable/flexible because of the greater selection of trips and larger population of f/as.

DTW seems to be a commuter base, it might actually not be so good there even with more trips or it just may work out fine.. it may work for more junior or those who are a little more flexible..also a lot of people live there as well, maybe if that program is implemented three days could be broken up to maybe one day and then two days, or three separate one days(at least as an option?) as it seems some who live there tend to fly one or two day trips. also maintaining International flying would probably be a good thing with all things considered...

However....contrary to what they are saying on Facebook, if you are in a more medium to small-sized base like SLC or LAX, the Adays are NOT that flexible and there is NOT that much on the Open time board to pick up from. So...you end up waiting for the phone to ring just like when you were a 20-something yr.old new hire.

this is one way how I am looking at the Aday, with the merger the combination offers more bases and satellite/alternate base program...with the possibility for transfer.. to different bases in the future.. maybe some would be a little more willing to accept such a program if they were actually at a base they live or in a closer proximity?

the bottom line is simply, what we have known has changed, and changed forever...we simply must accept the reality that with change comes great benefit and at times compromise.. considering what is fair for the entire group...what will be key here however is for all to be actively participating in the process and implementing any new changes..associated...by a simple majority by ratification.(that would make it a little more easy to accept) in my opinion.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Again, I agree with you Dig
.
It's sad to me though, that in order to try to sway (esp. jr) NW f/a's not to vote in the union, that some members of that site are spreading fear by saying that if AFA is voted in, Adays will go away (thus NW reserves will never have a chance to get off straight reserve). One gentleman, in particular, is trying to pit junior and senior f/a's against each other under this A day topic saying that AFA doesn't listen to its junior members. All the while, the same people accuse AFA supporters of scare tactics and pitting f/a's against mgt and each other. I respect their right to their opinion to be against AFA, but I do not respect their hypocrisy.

The other interesting thing is the guy who questioned US1549 f/a's...not only has that discussion topic been removed but it appears he has been removed as one of the "administrators" of the group. By the way, he was wrong that the aft f/a opened the door. A PASSENGER opened that rear door, not the aft f/a per 60 Minutes and Larry King interviews.

 

[BABABOOY]

The ball is now in the AFA's court.
Should be interesting.

 

[Dignity]

The ball is now in the AFA's court.
Should be interesting.

you are right it is...and personally its in everyone's interest this is resolved.. as seniority is a very sensitive and highly important issue..

but also the position regarding DOH from my group..would not have changed by the majority regardless...that was already well known..and especially to those on the integration teams..

the DL teams actually needed to spend a significant amount of time addressing and researching.. the best options made available. that would not only protect the DL group majority but also taking into consideration what is the best interest of the combined group.

so they basically needed to come to their own conclusion and recommendation, which they have.

..we should all want to move forward..(at least I would like to see that happen) and start to focus on other issues.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

you are right it is...and personally its in everyone's interest this is resolved.. as seniority is a very sensitive and highly important issue..

but also the position regarding DOH from my group..would not have changed by the majority regardless...that was already well known..and especially to those on the integration teams..

the DL teams actually needed to spend a significant amount of time addressing and researching.. the best options made available. that would not only protect the DL group majority but also taking into consideration what is the best interest of the combined group.

so they basically needed to come to their own conclusion and recommendation, which they have.

..we should all want to move forward..(at least I would like to see that happen) and start to focus on other issues.

I concur and I think upon the Seniority Integration's Recommendation yesterday and the company's agreement with it today, the AFA needs to go ahead and file for the election. By the time the NMB gives the timeline, I think the Pres. will have replaced Ms. Van de Water.
If they choose to drag this out too much longer, it is going to work against them, IMHO.

 

[Dignity]

Again, I agree with you Dig
.
It's sad to me though, that in order to try to sway (esp. jr) NW f/a's not to vote in the union, that some members of that site are spreading fear by saying that if AFA is voted in, Adays will go away (thus NW reserves will never have a chance to get off straight reserve).

well with the new Aday they will continue to be on reserve for a continued amount of time(just not a full month) so technically they are not getting off reserve at all...I believe it was mentioned reserve can go as high as 25 plus years regarding Aday? however being able to have more control over a schedule should be the primary focus and especially for those junior.. I am thankful DL has at least attempted to address this very important issue and do not believe its simply just going away..

One gentleman, in particular, is trying to pit junior and senior f/a's against each other under this A day topic saying that AFA doesn't listen to its junior members.

that is a personal opinion and certainly not a way to promote teamwork and unity..

All the while, the same people accuse AFA supporters of scare tactics and pitting f/a's against mgt and each other.

I would honestly like to see these types of division tactics stop however will continue to look forward the majority do not participate and focus on constructive and more positive ideas.

I respect their right to their opinion to be against AFA, but I do not respect their hypocrisy.

exactly..just remember there is always another side to a "story"...

The other interesting thing is the guy who questioned US1549 f/a's...not only has that discussion topic been removed but it appears he has been removed as one of the "administrators" of the group. By the way, he was wrong that the aft f/a opened the door. A PASSENGER opened that rear door, not the aft f/a per 60 Minutes and Larry King interviews.

I am glad the record was set straight.

 

[Dignity]

I think upon the Seniority Integration's Recommendation yesterday and the company's agreement with it today, the AFA needs to go ahead and file for the election. By the time the NMB gives the timeline, I think the Pres. will have replaced Ms. Van de Water.
If they choose to drag this out too much longer, it is going to work against them, IMHO.

I think you are right.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I think you are right.

And I'm going to stick by neck out even further, and I don't mean to diminish the hardworking AFA committee member's work, but I think AFA has an uphill battle based on:

1. The Economy.
People are scared right now and I think that anything in their lives that is "status quo" (and not costing them anything) is going to take precedence. I think the DL side may lose as much as 5% of last Spring's 40%

2. The RLA
Just by the fact that this statute has not been overhauled since what? the 1930s. Mandating all yes votes and nothing on the "no" side makes it very difficult to win.

3. AFA's Growing Negative Reputation
Perhaps some of it is unwarranted due to the restrictions in bargaining during the NW (and UA)bankruptcy phase, but many FAs (and the anti-union Delta side who constantly promote anti-AFAisms) don't understand this and many F/A's have spoken of their frustration with AFA.

4. The Numbers
I reiterate, and it's just my prediction, that you will see possibly a drop of 5% on the Delta side (see #1 above coupled with AFA vote fatigue from the election of last year) culminating in 35% in favor of AFA on the pre-merger Delta side. This would mean that, in order for there to be 50%+1 to ensure victory, the NW side would have to come in at 85% in favor of staying with AFA. That seems awfully steep to me.

Remember, these are just my (not based on anything but hunches) predictions today. Not set in stone and I could change my opinion later.

With that being said, I would love to see all 21,000 of us stand together and if AFA does not pass, bring our best and brightest together to secure an industry-leading contract under the auspices of our own in-house union. If AA can do it, the 21,000 of us should be able to especially with the talent from the NW side (Danny C, etc..) and DL's dedicated collective-bargaining supporters.

 

[jalbalpa]

Luke and Dignity I coudln't disagree with you more on having the election now.

Ask yuorself, what is there to gain by having the election today? Nothing

The SOC has been pushed back as far as July 2010, which means we can't fly with each other until then.

Delta management wants to have the election today, have you asked yourself why?

The election will happen when the time is right. I am not willing to roll the dice on our collective bargaining future.

I want a fair election, once AFA beleive that this is the case they will file. This is not the case today.

Do you really want to see the same thing as 2008? DVD's in the mail, huge posters in the lounges 'give a rip don't click', and many other actions by the company to persuade f/a's not to vote?

You know what, I'm not willing to take that chance.

We will wait until Read Van de Water is replaced to ensure a fair election.

I'm not rolling the dice on this one!


If you want to know more about the campaign....

If you are in the Cleveland area tune to WKTX 830AM or WELW 1330AM tomorrow morning from 8am to 9am. If you are not in the Cleveland area go to www.awfradio.com to listen live on the internet at 8am tomorrow morning.

 

[Dignity]

I would love to see all 21,000 of us stand together

it would probably be best.

 

[Dignity]

Luke and Dignity I coudln't disagree with you more on having the election now.

I can appreciate your opinion.

Ask yuorself, what is there to gain by having the election today?

resolution, so we can all move forward.

The SOC has been pushed back as far as July 2010, which means we can't fly with each other until then.

true.. but that does not necessarily mean seniority should have to wait to be addressed until well over a year..

Delta management wants to have the election today, have you asked yourself why?

irrelevant, they have zero say in the matter..

The election will happen when the time is right. I am not willing to roll the dice on our collective bargaining future.

timely resolution of key issues.. that are important to the majority are essential.

I want a fair election, once AFA beleive that this is the case they will file. This is not the case today.

I believe that will happen, a fair election.

Do you really want to see the same thing as 2008? DVD's in the mail, huge posters in the lounges 'give a rip don't click', and many other actions by the company to persuade f/a's not to vote?

personally would like to see them focus on running an airline, but hey.. thats me..

We will wait until Read Van de Water is replaced to ensure a fair election.


I'm not rolling the dice on this one!

we are just going to have to understand that life in general may not always appear fair..we either
accept the fact that some perceive it that way and others simply do not.. its basically personal views in the end, but completely understand your implication.

If you want to know more about the campaign....

If you are in the Cleveland area tune to WKTX 830AM or WELW 1330AM tomorrow morning from 8am to 9am. If you are not in the Cleveland area go to www.awfradio.com to listen live on the internet at 8am tomorrow morning.

may I ask what campaign?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Luke and Dignity I coudln't disagree with you more on having the election now.

Ask yuorself, what is there to gain by having the election today? Nothing

The SOC has been pushed back as far as July 2010, which means we can't fly with each other until then.

Delta management wants to have the election today, have you asked yourself why?

The election will happen when the time is right. I am not willing to roll the dice on our collective bargaining future.

I want a fair election, once AFA beleive that this is the case they will file. This is not the case today.

Do you really want to see the same thing as 2008? DVD's in the mail, huge posters in the lounges 'give a rip don't click', and many other actions by the company to persuade f/a's not to vote?

You know what, I'm not willing to take that chance.

We will wait until Read Van de Water is replaced to ensure a fair election.

I'm not rolling the dice on this one!


If you want to know more about the campaign....

If you are in the Cleveland area tune to WKTX 830AM or WELW 1330AM tomorrow morning from 8am to 9am. If you are not in the Cleveland area go to www.awfradio.com to listen live on the internet at 8am tomorrow morning.

Jal-- Personally, I know where you're coming from and agree. I'm not in a rush either.
But what you have to understand is there is a public relations angle to all of this. There is a perception angle to all of this. That, I think, is where AFA needs to rub the sleep out of their eyes, so-to-speak.
From a PR standpoint is what I was referring to when I say they need to file the election soon.
Many f/a's, especially DL, don't understand the intricacies of a new Pres. Administration, NMB appointments, etc.. They are anxious and want to know their futures. It's only natural.
If AFA wants to send out a message clearly stating why they are waiting and when they "expect" an election to take place, that is a step in the right direction.
The AFA should try to understand this and align their campaign strategy to include prospective member's perception of their actions, or in this case, lack of action.