US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 12/8-12/15

[nic4us]

Umm..OK..I'm somewhat curious here: Weren't those people furloughees from US?..that were therefore, in something of an extremely distressed and perhaps even desperate situation? Was AWA, in any way, their "first choice"? Had however "many" you mentioned belatedly realized that AWA was truly the top tier of all carriers, and bailed from US and refused any openings at all other carriers, so they could finally be able to truly live their airline dreams to the fullest?

Please...Be serious here.

"had not soloed when you got hired". Well..the truth is that the vast majority of yours out there probably hadn't. Get over yourselves. As for: "childish".."me generation"...That model sadly serves quite well to explain the actions and attitudes evidenced out west. Even your propoganda out there's entirely dependent upon the issuance of sophmoric dissertations containing very selective, (and far too limited in range and scope for any intellectual viablility) "philosophocal", bizarrely colorized, historical "sound bites" and heck!..even fantasies of assuming onto yourselves Spartan military sacrifice and the proper glory associated with long dead, true heros that actually did something with their lives...(above and beyond performing the Herculean triumph of obtaining employment with AWA). The entire core premise of the AWA bunch as a whole, (self stated as a "Righteous Positon"..resplendant with oceans of "INTEGRITY of course)..is that your time worked and personal experience far exceeds in value that of other people's with more of both...Quite honestly; I can only garner a sense of perpetually pre-pubeseant narcicissm from such. What am I "missing" herein? ..And please...no need for any of the mighty Spartan "Army" out there to reflexively barrage with another bevy of "Booyooshakas"...or "Dude"...and "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it" has already been launched long ago.

Okay, I will be serious. First off, not all were furloughees. You may find this hard to believe but we had 1988 hires leaving USAirways while still employed there to take employment at America West. Smart enough to see the writing on the wall and guess what their NIC seniority is greater with AWA than US,..go figure..

I will say Pacemaker got it right...at times AWA was not the top tier...(basically anytime a higher paying major was hiring)..and at times it looked better than elsewhere. Recently, we had many leave for Virgin America..hoping it will be a good decision in the end..best of luck to them.

While we were hiring from USAirways pilots and furloughs, I was flying with a new hire who had just left the Navy, said his whole squadron was trying to get on with the big 3..Southwest..America West..Jet Blue...times sure change, do they not?

You are correct in that I do not really want the history lesson from AOL everytime they update our legal standing, and I agree that it is in your words "sophmoric". However, you are incorrect in what you believe to be the West core premise. Our experience does not have greater value than yours, but our positions within the new company are no less valuable than yours. Therefore, a West captain, with 20 years and 10 as captain, or 15 years and 8 as captain, or even 10 years and 6 as captain, is still senior to the first officers your side brought to the new company. That is what relative seniority is all about. Unlike the pilots that were smart enough to leave USAirways and gain seniority by hiring on at America West, you do not get to leepfrog an entire pilot group just because your defunct company was your first choice back in 1978 or '83......wait hold on a second here...am I posing with a '88 or later hire who was furloughed at the time of the merger, could not get hired anywhere else, and still thinks they should be senior to 80% of the West list, because if that is the case I will quit wasting my time.

 

[Megasnoop]

"Regardless of what you might think, not even a federal judge can force a rank and file membr to write a check. If there are damages that the membership doesnt want to pay, usapa goes bk. bring back alpo for all I care. see who alpo sides with in the LCC/UAL merger."

Megasnoop,

I would not be so sure of this. Perhaps rank and file would escape paying any judgement, but the individuals named in the suit most certainly would carry the burden.

4. Jack Stephan
7. Kim Allen Snider

Former alpo-volunteers/MEC officers getting sued, having to get attorneys and depositions? Without alpo buying their trips. I dont think they even joined usapa after they failed to save the mother ship. And they could be hit financially? In a sick way thats funny.

Rank and file paying? You got to be kidding. You really think that wed pay? A Judge attching our wages, bank accounts? Thats pretty silly, Nic.

8. Kevin Berry
12. Bob Kirsh

So 2 alpo/mec MC members, probably not usapa members either, get sued for doing their job. thats kind of sick, too. You guys are great. A lot of moxy.

It will not be dont pay get fired, it would be dont pay go directly to jail. Further, I do not believe an abuse of bankruptcy laws will get USAPA as far as their abuse of RLA law, RICO statutes,and plain old common sense.

quite a stretch, Nic. How about a single case to substantiate that. Maybe Al Gore can give you a controlling legal authority.

Sometime this spring ALPA will be back seeking support to start a card drive, to have it ready for spring 2010. I think it will be the West who sends them packing, knowing as you point out, we will have our own in house union free of ALPA. However, we do not have to wait to inherit it, we will own it at the adjournment of this coming trial. If you wish to change your status at that time from member to objector feel free but make sure you keep up on your agency shop fees.

I quit alpo because of the "path of least resistence" (not exact quote of bill) that pollack and beebe took, giving away our pensions, pay, working conditions. I always paid on time so I wouldnt get "Jamied." alpo wont get an invite back here, ether side. I think most of us can agree on that. As far as you guys running/owning the union? Who cares. Nic is the bottom line, it cant get any worse. I didnt quit alpo in the 80s when I lost seniority after 2 alpo-alpo merges. I wouldnt quit usapa even if Leonidas himself was president as long as he didnt make decisions that screwed me. Nic4, not all of us over here are zealots. Your need to throw out scary unsubstantiated scenarios with no "contolling legal authority" may play well in PHX and put a smug on your face, but it continues to polarize us. I try to stay away from it. The court case will play itself out on its own, without the chat board hype. BTW, we had another west JSer going to Europe last week. As a crew, we agreed he deserved a "very comfortable" seat, despite his lanyard.Thats his opinion. We can ignore it. Afterall, hes one of us.

Meanwhile, the company has delayed the RJ arbitration. one of their attorneys got sick. Looking at our evidence, I can see why. A win there could bring back 170 furloughs. But wed only do that to minimize our "liability," right Nic? snooped

 

[nycbusdriver]

Lot's of responses needed to a lot of different posters.

1. I challenge anyone to find any archived statements BY ME that USAPA gets rid of the Nicolau. I never believed it to be a certainly, but I believed it to be the best attempt possible. Aside from the fact that ALPA needs desperately to be relegated to the dustbin of history, keeping ALPA guaranteed Nicolau.

2. If Bradford or anyone else in a USAPA position of authority said that USAPA would, with certaintly, get rid of the Nicolau shame, I think that was a critical strategic error. Too bad on them. If it's documented, then USAPA will face the consequences. I have no heartburn with that. Facts are facts.

3. If the court rules against USAPA and there are going to be punitive awards, then the jury gets to determine the amount. Not the judge. I think we beat that topic to death a few days ago.

4. As far as getting a "do over" for the Nicolau.... Wake up, people. This IS the do over. It's called litigation in a court of law. It may not be pretty, and it may not go in a direction either side expects. But it is nevertheless a "do over." If Nicolau was in fact final and binding, then why does a federal judge get to say anything at all about it? The Nicolau shame may survive this litigation unscathed, but only because a federal court had the true "final and binding" word on the matter.

5. Although the DL/NW integration went slotted rather than DOH, the makeup of the pilot groups and fleets involved are light years different than US and AW. I'm not sure of the ages of the THREE (yes, count them, THREE) arbitrators, but their number belies the fact that they did NOT use the ALPA method for integration. That being said, they did end up following the tenets of ALPA merger policy and ended up complying with the one point that was conspicuously absent from the US/AW list...."no windfalls."

 

[Megasnoop]

Did you actually read my post? I can't predict the outcome of the trial but my point was if Judge Wake finds for the plaintiff USAPA will be paying a monetary price.

I thought wed solved that on the board already. juries award prices. no better place to get accurate legal opinion than right there. (Nic4, that was a joke)

Your leaders are gradually managing your expectations about the likely outcome of the trial but they haven't yet prepared you for this little tidbit. I'm just trying to help. 😛 Sounds like you haven't bothered to read the court documents and Wake's Order.

if usapa has to pay money it doesnt have, it will simply go out of business. what a deal. you want alpo back?

But that's your problem, not mine.I have no love for ALPA.

you bk usapa and you just might get alpo back, the union your suing.

I'm a member of a class-action DFR suit against them. (Interestingly, your own Lee Seham is an expert-witness for the TWA side.) I just want a union that isn't attacking me and my colleagues. Based on what I've seen from USAPA thus far ALPA would be a far better choice.

How long that noble cause been going on? I know Arthur and Hefele. I know where that isnt going. To set the record, Seham testified for twa, not alpo. Now didnt your twa DFR attorney have to refuse to represent AOL due to a conflict of interest? Im not sure how usapa is attacking you. please explain. BTW, you guys inherit the majority in just a few years. when your in control, do youwant to answer to the membership or to alpo national?

717, ask yourself why alpo didnt force the east mec into trusteeship to force the NIC and a contract. conflict of interest. Bring them back, have a merger with UAL and whose alpo going to side with? snoopster

 

[Pacemaker]

Geez....Scrooge showed up early this year

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Geez....Scrooge showed up early this year

Boy, ain't that the truth!

You should see the PM he just sent me - a good bit of which got bleeped out by the profanity editor.

This person seems to "go off" for no reason at all - I hope he's not experiencing any personal problems.

It may just be because the Christmas cheer has gotten a little sour out there on the east side of the Mississippi.

(Don't worry eastus - I won't be placing your latest PM tirade up for public consumption here)

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

So your Air Force Academy Graduates are better than our Air Force Academy Graduates? Your former F-14 pilots are better than our former F-14 pilots? Ok, if you say so.

In fact, one of my new hire classmates, a military pilot to boot, turned down NorthWest to stay at America West. On top of that, he bypassed upgrade.

I could go somewhere else with this also, but that would be poor taste.

 

[Waketurbulence]

If the mentality of the usapites on this board is any indication of what it took to get hired, I'm glad I never applied.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I thought wed solved that on the board already.

Is English not your first language? I can't even remember who said it but my reply was to whomever thought the fight against the Nic was worth it even if the East loses. The point being, if the East loses this trial the damages will likely make them regret following Seham's advice.

if usapa has to pay money it doesnt have, it will simply go out of business. what a deal. you want alpo back?

That would be acceptable to me.

you bk usapa and you just might get alpo back, the union your suing.

For four years at two different airlines I paid dues to ALPA, the union I'm suing. And the leaders of Army of Leonidas are all USAPA members in good standing. It's called behaving pragmatically and not emotionally.

How long that noble cause been going on?

Over seven years. Typical for a complex civil case. Discovery has been completed and expert testimony is being collected now for an antipated trial date later in 2009.

To set the record, Seham testified for twa, not alpo.

That's what I wrote. Once again, is English not your first language?

Now didnt your twa DFR attorney have to refuse to represent AOL due to a conflict of interest?

I have no idea about that taking place. Our firm is in St. Louis.

Im not sure how usapa is attacking you. please explain.

Hmmm, lemme think for a second. Oh yeah, it has something to do with seniority. Perhaps it's USAPA trying to negotiate a new seniority list that benefits the East? Yup, I nailed it. Anything else you don't understand?

BTW, you guys inherit the majority in just a few years.

Rii-iight. And I was supposed to be a captain at TWA after five years LOS. I'm not too keen on predictions in this industry, especially from self-serving people like you.

717, ask yourself why alpo didnt force the east mec into trusteeship to force the NIC and a contract.

Because Prater was gutless and naive. He delayed as long as possible hoping your tantrum would end and reason would take over. Still hasn't happened. What about after Judge Wake's ruling?

Bring them back, have a merger with UAL and whose alpo going to side with?

UAL will side with UAL. I'm not in favor of any merger, ever.

 

[exB717Flyer]

If Nicolau was in fact final and binding, then why does a federal judge get to say anything at all about it?

That's a nonsensical question. The fact that this is in court is due to a disagreement on a point of law. Your man Seham says a binding arbtiration can be set aside just by voting. The rest of the country says no way. Do you really think a judge is going to side with you?

 

[nic4us]

"Nic4, not all of us over here are zealots. Your need to throw out scary unsubstantiated scenarios with no "contolling legal authority" may play well in PHX and put a smug on your face, but it continues to polarize us. I try to stay away from it. The court case will play itself out on its own, without the chat board hype. BTW, we had another west JSer going to Europe last week. As a crew, we agreed he deserved a "very comfortable" seat, despite his lanyard.Thats his opinion. We can ignore it. Afterall, hes one of us."

Snoop,

Okay, you are correct, I will try to lighten it up a little, I do throw out some over the top stuff. In my defense though, it is usually in response to anothers outrageous post. Thanks for the hospitality shown to the West pilot, ( frankly I would not have worn a lanyard or other "bling" when requesting a ride ) Hopefully, the favor can come back for you, one of those karma type things.

I am of course on our collective side in regards to the RJ arbitration. A favorable ruling would be great news for those facing furlough.

 

[nic4us]

The least that can be fairly said is that they first got a job with what was then perceived to be a good carrier with a presumed future (don't EVEN start on any "career expectations"..reality and the pond scum that fill the executive branches necessarilly negate all of such fantasies..in example = your pathetic little puppies still fantasiaze that your "Doug" ever even considers you utterly pathetic little fools as anything other than a red inked liabilty...and pathetic little scabs-in-the -ready- to be "played"...and.your group does NOTHING but whine and look for a bottle with a fake teat on it. Easilly imagine this from management..and trust me = you're all being played for complete "usefull idiots" in the Stalinist tradition, and only your utility as potential strikebreakers even gets you the "time of day"...."Hey!!..if those egotistical "Pilots" were so smart..they'd be perpetually adolescent frat boys like MEEE!...drinking themselves into stupors..and pocketing millions like MEEEEEE") Frankly..your groups's so utterly "stupid" as to think that some fantasized "First Name Basis" actually means anything at all to that man/management..other than to manipulate you all as complete fools/tools...which you've all shown such amazingly agreeable tendancies towards....Sucxh utter and complete fools as you are out there..and with so few tracks run it seems.

PS: Face it, whether you like it or not....America Worst has ALWAYS been a complete "joke" for anyone ever wishing employment within the aviation industry, that either had decent credentials, or was even able to open their mouths and speak acceptably at interviews. Correct me if I'm at ALL wrong on that = Just how many of your "Spartan Warriors' were EVER even offered jobs at "decent" airlines? You didn't "have your pick"...AWA was simply "the best that you could find that would actually hire you"..end of factual observation. I can almost understand your personal evolution = TWA?=..Is that the best I can do?..= OK then...AWA?= fugg me..I'm unemployed..and I can at least take a "joke".

PS: Don't start me on TWA..that was also a "last gasp" hiring opportunity when you got on board. Don't EVEN try and pretend otherwise. Heve some Pride man. I will readilly admit to "funking" one interview with Delata...I like to think that I "flunked" the "non-assertive personality" issue with "Doctor RockingChair"...and no..my literally bursting into laughter at the "Lilly Tomlin" rocking chair had nothing to do with his later suicide, as that happened some time aterwards... You pathetically sorry punks, on the other hand..are a "Blessing" to management..and a fullest insult to the Profession.

$!0,000 dollars to the very first of you that can factually demonstrate that you EVER turned down ANY major carriers in favor of emplyment at Amerca Worst...Open wager...go for it. I'll give that 2-1 =you claim it and it's BS?= I'll not try you for more than half the wager's value.

Wow

Let me ask you this. Where did you pick up the superiority complex? Was it during your airline career at the defunct carrier? Did something happen during your military service? Were you the only one to score four touchdowns in a single game at Arrogant highschool? That Delta rejection letter must have really hurt.

I am not on a first name basis with the CEO. I do not expect he will treat the West with any greater consideration than the east. He will be obliged to consider a federal court ruling above your delusional attitude of entitlement.

Further, I did not follow AWAPPA's application suggestion, primarily because I would not submit the accompaning letter stating I would cross a USAPA picket line. But as a "pathetically sorry punk" a "joke" in the proffesion, I will say this. Call me a "scab" again and I will attempt to teach you a $10,000 dollar lesson on career expectations.

 

[Pacemaker]

I guess "don't get personal" only applies to certain groups here on us(air)aviation.com

 

[Pacemaker]

It may just be because the Christmas cheer has gotten a little sour out there on the east side of the Mississippi.

Maybe we should cut 'em some slack back there. After all, they have to live back there, and we get to live out here. I'm headed out to pitch b.p. to my son this morning. EastUS is probably spending the day scraping ice off his sidewalk.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Nic

The epithet "scab" certainly stings, particularly if you don't deserve it. So I would encourage you to communicate to your fellow pilots out west that derogatory epithets and slogans, some of which use the label "scab", or variations thereof, and have been seen in widespread use - are counter productive at the very least.