US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 12/8-12/15

[InternationalShannon]

Oh, one other thing, you sure look impressive in those pilot uniforms.

:wub:

 

[EastUS]

V one -

Were you thumping your chest as you wrote that post? Grunting like a Marine? Ooo rahhh

In any case, someone is going to find out what crow tastes like........ :bleh:

NiceLandingCaptain..in an earlier fantasized moment you posted "There were times when hundreds of troops on the ground maybe didn't get killed because myself..." It was demonstrated that you never even came close to flying in any combat theater of ops....ever. I feel it best to leave any "thumping your chest" to your sort, as it affords the maximum possible in amusement.

I'll leave judgments as to proper assignment for fodase. COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

 

[Tiger 1050]

Back at ya!

We don't know who will be doing the appealing yet, do we?

"Back at ya!"...? My comment was directed to pus who felt compelled to proclaim it will in fact go through the appeals process thereby taking many years... And of course you seem to be familiar with my response to him/her.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The NW/DAL arbitration is out. They went ratio/relative seniority. Since DOH is the only fair way to do an integration I just can't believe it. How can USAPA be wrong?

1. All pilots on long-term sick leave (12 months or longer) were removed
from the pre-merger lists.

2. The 274 oldest Northwest pilots were removed from the pre-merger list.

3. The first 3045 positions on the ISSL were filled with the first 1961 Delta
pilots and 1084 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of
1961:1084 beginning with a Delta pilot.

4. The next 2433 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 1313 Delta
pilots and 1120 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of
1313:1120 beginning with a Delta pilot.

5. The next 3932 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 2580 Delta
pilots and 1352 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of
2580:1352 beginning with a Delta pilot.

6. The ISSL was completed with Delta and Northwest pilots remaining on the
pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1314:957 Delta to Northwest pilots beginning
with a Delta pilot until both pre-merger lists are exhausted subject to
paragraph 7, below.

7. All pilots with dates of hire after April 14, 2008, were placed at the bottom
of the ISSL in order of date of hire.

8. The Northwest pilots pulled in paragraph 2. were inserted directly above
the next junior Northwest pilot.
The Pilots of Northwest Airlines, Inc.
and The Pilots of Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Page 30 of 32

9. The pilots on long-term sick leave pulled in paragraph 1. were inserted
directly above the next junior pilot on his/her respective pre-merger list.





B. Conditions and Restrictions

1. These conditions and restrictions are an integral part of the ISSL and shall
remain in full force and effect until their expiration by their terms.

2. Pilots hired after April 14, 2008, shall be junior to all pilots on the ISSL
and shall be listed in order of date of hire consistent with the Joint
Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA.).

3. Neither the implementation of the ISSL nor the implementation or
expiration of a condition or restriction herein, in and of itself, shall cause
the displacement of any pilot from his or her then-current position
(including pilots who have been awarded positions but had not
commenced or completed training).

4. For the period of five (5) years beginning with the first bid period after the
issuance of the Single Operating Certificate (SOC), no pre-merger
Northwest pilot may be awarded or displaced to a vacancy on a B777
aircraft or category and no pre-merger Delta pilot may be awarded or
displaced to a B787 or B747 vacancy.

5. Should the merged company take delivery of any aircraft which is/are a
replacement of any aircraft covered by Paragraph 4., the captain positions
and, as applicable, the first officer positions on each such replacement
The Pilots of Northwest Airlines, Inc.
and The Pilots of Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Page 31 of 32
aircraft will be allocated in accordance with the Paragraph 4. restrictions
on the type it is replacing.

6. Paragraph 4. shall expire on the fifth (5th) anniversary of the SOC. Any
bid awards or displacements effective after that date will not be subject to
this restriction.

7. If there are insufficient bidders from one pre-merger pilot group for a
posted or contingent vacancy on one side of the fence during the period
covered by Paragraph 4., unfilled vacancies may be filled by pilots from the
other pre-merger airline.

8. A pilot awarded a position (via an AE, MD or VD) to a category as a result
of insufficient bidders will, for the purposes of processing future
displacements in accordance with Section 22 F. of the JCBA, be considered
as junior to all pilots from the pre-merger pilot group that was entitled to
that category.

9. From November 1, 2008, until the first bid period following issuance of
the SOC, any furloughs that are the result of the reduction in flying in the
pre-merger aircraft contained in each airline's pre-merger fleet shall be
borne by the pilots from that pre-merger airline regardless of their system
seniority; provided, however, that any furloughs resulting from such
reduction in B757 shall be shared on a 1:1 basis.

10. In accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and Paragraph 7. of the Process
Agreement, representatives of the pre-merger Delta MEC and pre-merger
Northwest MEC will adopt a simple process for resolving questions
concerning the interpretation or application of the ISSL by this Award.

11. In accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and Paragraphs 7. and 9. of the
Process Agreement, this Arbitration Board shall retain jurisdiction to
resolve any unresolved disputes between the pre-merger pilot groups as to
the terms of the Dispute Resolution Process and/or the interpretation or
application of this Award.

 

[Megasnoop]

Even if USAPA appeals, the Nicolau becomes the law of the land. No delay, no postponement. So the only thing an appeal will accomplish is a huge legal bill. If on the off chance that USAPA’s appeal is successful then it would have to be fixed at that time. So USAPA can hope for as long a delay as you want. How many years would you wait? With only a 20% chance of winning.

except for one thing: you dont get the NIC until theres contract. that requires a vote. Maybe with a court win, you guys will finally smarten up and join, so you can have some input. Your 20%? Who knows. the ninth circuit overrules republican-appointed judges as blood sport. But then the ninth gets overturned by the supremes more than any appeals court. no contract, no nic. A west win shifts the leverage your way but doesnt give you instant nic. BTW, best hope we win the RJ and hours reduction arbitrations. if we lose, the company furloughs even more, most likely more west pilots. if you dont see how important they are, you got blinders.

An appeal will not stop the judgment.

a judgment that cant be activiated without a contract. no way the judge can force a contract cram-down.

So feel free to hang your hopes on an appeal. Feel free to spend all the money you want on Mr. Seham. But if USAPA is found to be in the wrong the Nicolau goes forward no delay. That will be sometime in February 2009.

It will be your money as well, clear. If you dont pay, you dont work. That simple. To you fodase, on the DAL/NWA arbitration: while NWA did have pilots with more years of service, their result didnt go 20 years, 8 years, 20 years, 8 years, 20 years. they did get fences that will last. My read on the nic is with age 65, our fence is gone (anyone correct me if wrong).


717:

4. For the period of five (5) years beginning with the first bid period after the
issuance of the Single Operating Certificate (SOC), no pre-merger
Northwest pilot may be awarded or displaced to a vacancy on a B777
aircraft or category and no pre-merger Delta pilot may be awarded or
displaced to a B787 or B747 vacancy.


9. From November 1, 2008, until the first bid period following issuance of
the SOC, any furloughs that are the result of the reduction in flying in the
pre-merger aircraft contained in each airline's pre-merger fleet shall be
borne by the pilots from that pre-merger airline regardless of their system
seniority; provided, however, that any furloughs resulting from such
reduction in B757 shall be shared on a 1:1 basis.

furlos sound like how Bular handled it. snooper

 

[fodase]

except for one thing: you dont get the NIC until theres contract. that requires a vote. Maybe with a court win, you guys will finally smarten up and join, so you can have some input. Your 20%? Who knows. the ninth circuit overrules republican-appointed judges as blood sport. But then the ninth gets overturned by the supremes more than any appeals court. no contract, no nic. A west win shifts the leverage your way but doesnt give you instant nic. BTW, best hope we win the RJ and hours reduction arbitrations. if we lose, the company furloughs even more, most likely more west pilots. if you dont see how important they are, you got blinders.




a judgment that cant be activiated without a contract. no way the judge can force a contract cram-down.



It will be your money as well, clear. If you dont pay, you dont work. That simple. To you fodase, on the DAL/NWA arbitration: while NWA did have pilots with more years of service, their result didnt go 20 years, 8 years, 20 years, 8 years, 20 years. they did get fences that will last. My read on the nic is with age 65, our fence is gone (anyone correct me if wrong). snooper

The Judge can't force a contract, but he has authority to change the transition agreement, and he has authority to do whatever he feels necessary to make the west whole, that could include usapa paying damages to west pilots until a new contract is in place, I'll take cash, no checks

 

[exB717Flyer]

The best answer is ALPA.

Please be more specific as to how ALPA started the conflict that began with the AAA MEC withdrawing from joint contract negotiations.

scapegoat
2 a: one that bears the blame for others b: one that is the object of irrational hostility

 

[GuntherA320]

V one -

Were you thumping your chest as you wrote that post? Grunting like a Marine? Ooo rahhh!

Come on man, if the judge rules in favor of the West, I'm sure your '87 friends will live on - they just have to figure out where their individual true limits are whilst living with LOA 93. Besides, the West is gradually coming to usapa. Our votes, plus the rational East votes will go a long way in determining the outcome of any future TA. So, the boastful attitude you have bestowed upon them may, quite possibly, be all for naught.

In any case, someone is going to find out what crow tastes like........ :bleh:

I agree, someone is going to find out what crow tastes like. We just don't know who yet or when. However, I think both sides have already had some crow. East = May 07. West = April 08. Seems like it runs on an 11 month cycle. So that puts the East due around March 2009 and the West due around Feb 2010. Personally, I don't like crow, so I don't make boastful, taunting, slanted posts. I try to look at things realistically. All this jibber jabber is like talking crap in the 1st quarter of a football game. The way it is suppose to work is both sides play as hard as they can. When the game is over (the game is not over at half time) you walk across the field and shake hands with the other team. Real men....Men of integrity let their actions speak for them. They don't use emotional, taunting, or incindiary words. That goes for both sides.

 

[GuntherA320]

Actually, no one would have to eat crow if they could refrain from "talking trash". But i guess everyone likes the way Terrell Owens acts and no one likes the way Brett Farve plays the game.

 

[Megasnoop]

The Judge can't force a contract, but he has authority to change the transition agreement,

he has the authority to change a contract negotiated under the RLA? Really? How?

and he has authority to do whatever he feels necessary to make the west whole, that could include usapa paying damages to west pilots until a new contract is in place,

wheres your loss to be made whole? The company did the furlos, not usapa. In fact, usapa is arbitrating Macilvena grievances, in good faith, Im sure. Ill grant he COULD rule the nic be used in section 22 negotiations, but this damage thing off the wall. ALPO negotiated for 3 years after the merger announcement and couldnt get it done. usapas only been negotiating for about 4 months, off and on. where the loss? not coming up with an instant contract? snoper

 

[fodase]

he has the authority to change a contract negotiated under the RLA? Really? How?



wheres your loss to be made whole? The company did the furlos, not usapa. In fact, usapa is arbitrating Macilvena grievances, in good faith, Im sure. Ill grant he COULD rule the nic be used in section 22 negotiations, but this damage thing off the wall. ALPO negotiated for 3 years after the merger announcement and couldnt get it done. usapas only been negotiating for about 4 months, off and on. where the loss? not coming up with an instant contract? snoper

Mega, yes he has the power and full weight of law to amend the TA, He has the power to make usapa pay damages everyday until the Nic. is in place, he has the power to throw usapa's leaders in jail if they don't comply. Just read his order, he says that he didn't give us a tro because he will make us whole if we win the case. Why don't you go ask a lawyer what kind of power a federal judge has?

 

[Metroyet]

except for one thing: you dont get the NIC until theres contract.

Sorry Dude, The Judge already addressed this. You guys are at the end of the line. There is no where else to hide. The RLA has absolutely *nothing* to do with this dispute, (despite what you've been sold) This is in the world of Contract Law...more specifically, the breach of said law. If the West is successful, (which the Judge basically has already decided) The Nic will be a part of any contract that gets signed in perpetuity. The Blow hard Bradford Clan has already delivered all it can. Nothing. The West isn't going to need a single eastie to agree with anything as far as the nic is concerned. That was already settled over a year ago. Now, I believe, this Judge is going to bring this to a true finality.

Then the West will Join...BIG TIME.

Those Senior guys are ready for a respectable pay rate. Don't count on those votes either.

See you in Court...no later than FEB. 09

 

[nostradamus]

Is it true there are 12 more west Captains joining the f/o club?

 

[electricjet98]

Is it true there are 12 more west Captains joining the f/o club?

True...expect additional damages to be charged to USAPA. Expect USAPA east members to have an assesment sent their way. Thank you, thank you very much!

 

[cubfan]

I spoke to one of the attorneys yesterday. I asked that very question about appeals. His short answer was this.

If the west wins this law suit whatever judgment that is brought down goes forward. Even if USAPA appeals, the Nicolau becomes the law of the land. No delay, no postponement. So the only thing an appeal will accomplish is a huge legal bill. If on the off chance that USAPA’s appeal is successful then it would have to be fixed at that time. So USAPA can hope for as long a delay as you want. How many years would you wait? With only a 20% chance of winning.

If anyone doubts this think about OJ. He is appealing his conviction and sentence. But in the mean time he is sitting in jail. I know that it is criminal and civil but the principle is the same.

An appeal will not stop the judgment.

So feel free to hang your hopes on an appeal. Feel free to spend all the money you want on Mr. Seham. But if USAPA is found to be in the wrong the Nicolau goes forward no delay. That will be sometime in February 2009.

clear,
what does no delay, no postponement mean, does it mean the NIC will become the list when all vote for a contract? Or does your lawyer or you think it will be imposed now, meaning recall of your furloughes more east on the street? I don't see it.