US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 12/8-12/15

[BoeingBoy]

No idea about an appeal, but as I understand it an appeal must be on specific grounds - what I as a layman would call "mistakes in the application of the law" and not merely because one side doesn't like the ruling. HP-FA might be willing to expound on what constitutes grounds for an appeal and what doesn't.

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

My mistake. I got it backwards. The jury decides the damages, and Wake decides the liability.

Don't beat yourself up too much. In most normal civil matters the jury would determine liability and damages, subject to subsequent rulings of the court.

Judge Wake had to cover a lot of legal ground to get to the point where he now is in regards to the case. He decidedly did not like USAPA arguing both that the plaintiffs had waited too long to bring their actions and that the plaintiffs had not exhausted all remedies prior to filing suit. He also did not appear to be impressed by counsel's arguments and at least one defense witness. All of that is already on the record in this case since that was a combined evidentiary hearing and prolonged motion hearing. Had Judge Wake ruled in favor of the defendants it could also be said that Judge Wake had apparently made up his mind. Despite the fact that I think Judge Wake is now inclined toward the position of the plaintiffs, they still have a burden of proof to meet and that, I believe, is a preponderance of the evidence. West still has to meet that requirement at trial.

 

[nostradamus]

I have no problem with posters providing truth, backed by a legitimate source. When I view the opinion of the poster, I consider the source.

What is troubling is a poster that tries to pass themselves off as a legal professional when they are not, or if they are, provides information on their relevance in the discussion.

There are laws against this conduct.

Other less sophisticated people have a term for this, the outhouse lawyer.

 

[Megasnoop]

Probably for the same reason that you and boeingplt pronounced that it would be a jury trial...was that east spin disguised as truth?

Jim

Big Jim, I never pronounced it was going to be a jury trial. I just said: "A jury may or not agree with him" The wests chat board "trial lawyer" pounced on what I rightly assumed was common knowledge. Seems like Wake has already ruled on whether he thinks usapa is in dfr territory. But if you want to keep beating this minutia into the ground, go for it.

But regardless, that $20 was 1790 dollars. No telling what thats worth today. snoop-dog

 

[hp_fa]

No idea about an appeal, but as I understand it an appeal must be on specific grounds - what I as a layman would call "mistakes in the application of the law" and not merely because one side doesn't like the ruling.

Generally speaking the trial court establishes the facts of the case. In other words the court (whether by judge or jury) determines the facts. The trial judge then applies those facts to what the court understands the law to be in those specific circumstances. Appeals are almost never about the facts, but rather the law. (The only time facts are generally open to appellate consideration is if the facts determined by the trial court are so outrageous in relation to the actual testimony supporting the trial court's determination of facts.) The law comes into play in the area of where the judge applies constitutional, statutory and common law to the facts as determined by the trier-of-fact.

In this case, if it indeed goes on appeal, I fully expect the sides to argue to the Ninth Circuit how the various cases such as Rakestraw v. United
Airlines, Inc., Air Wisconsin Pilots Protection Committee v. Sanderson and many other cases. (By the way, those cases were decided by the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals and are not primary authority in the Ninth Circuit.) The appealing party, called the appellant, will attempt to persuade the Court of Appeals to accept jurisdiction of the case and then, via written briefs and an oral argument where counsel alone will address the court, attempt to convince those judges that Judge Wake made one or more errors in applying applicable law to the specific facts he determined occurred in the underlying case.

I hope this explains part of what is occurring and makes it a bit more understandable.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually, you said "if usapa wants a jury trial to get an unbiased result, it will be a jury trial." Since USAPA has already asked for a jury trial, your statement indicates that it would therefore be a jury trial.

Jim

 

[Leonidas]

Let me get this straight, you think a Jury is more likely to side with usapa than with the west? a jury trial would benefit the west even more, the amount of evidence (including the new dal/nwa arb) in the west's favor is overwhelming, most of it on video.

 

[Eastisleast]

This is what its like to explain BINDING ARBITRATION to a East pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqwFnyxu-OA

 

[cubfan]

A former US east pilot at the PHX crew news said that the lifetime pass benefits for furloughed east pilots were a "good will gesture" by Segal and not in the contract or LOA. Doug responded that they may take them away (pass privileges)if found to be true. Does any east guy know if this true that furloughed pilot get lifetime pass benefits and were exactly it states this in the contract or LOA?

Elevation,
Not sure if it was lifetime or not but it was at least a couple of years. Either way, this should be granted by mgt. Folks on furlough need to be able to get around to interview where needed, I don't feel this would cost anyone a nickel, I hope Parker doesn't take it from the east as he needs to include it for the west. Maybe all can put their swords down for awhile and at least stand together on this issue.

 

[curious]

HP FA

Couple of questions:
1. **IF** the judge rules against USAPA and implements the Nic award, can this still be negotiated away with the company?
2. If the judge does decide in favor of the Nic how does this affect the constitution of USAPA? My understanding is that their constitution is based on date-of-hire. If the judge forces Nic into play this will be in opposition to their constitution.

Thanks.

 

[cubfan]

I watched the West session yesterday, is it me or does Parker seem just about over the whole discussion of NIC vs DOH. I think in the last couple of west sessions, this subject keeps coming up over and over again. It seems to me that he gives the same answer over and over again, the whole thing is in litigation and I have to be careful about what I say. My take on all this is he will go with whatever the court decides, if NIC is decided in his mind it's over, if DOH is decided, he will then look at other options, what those would be who knows, I surely don't think he would just impose DOH. However I really think that he gets bored with someone reading some part of the TA for what seems like eternity. Everyone needs to just let the courts decide.

 

[pilotn79]

Okay, so does that mean Judge Wake will decide the case (guilty vs. not guilty) and a jury will decide an appropriate remedy?

There is some talk about a settlement prior to the trial. I hope there is no deal. I'm looking forward to seeing the look on Lee's face after the verdict.

 

[cleardirect]

HP FA

Couple of questions:
1. **IF** the judge rules against USAPA and implements the Nic award, can this still be negotiated away with the company?

Curious,

I am not HP FA but I think I can answer your questions. If the judge implements the award and the company or USAPA TRY to negotiate that away, they would be in violation of a federal ruling. That is the whole reason the we are all in court. To compel USAPA and the company to use the arbitrated award. If they could negotiate after a ruling it defeats the entire purpose.

This has been USAPA’s entire basis for avoiding binding arbitration. It can be negotiated. We would be right back to square one. I doubt a federal judge would be happy about either party violating his orders.

2. If the judge does decide in favor of the Nic how does this affect the constitution of USAPA? My understanding is that their constitution is based on date-of-hire. If the judge forces Nic into play this will be in opposition to their constitution.

Thanks.

USAPA’s constitution is only something that an association wrote down. It does not have the weight of law. A organization can not put something in their C&BL that is illegal. For example USAPA can not put in their C&BL that all women will be junior to all men. That would be illegal. If judge Wake rules that the Nicolau is the list. That makes the DOH clause contrary to a federal court ruling. I believe that he could simple order it removed.

If that were the case most of the west opposition would go away.

 

[cleardirect]

There is some talk about a settlement prior to the trial. I hope there is no deal. I'm looking forward to seeing the look on Lee's face after the verdict.

I agree there should be no deal. But Lee is not going to care one way or another. He will try his best to suppress a smile and go back to his very expensive hotel room and count his money.

What does Lee care whether he wins or loses? He and his firm got paid either way and they got paid a lot of money. Don’t forget. Lee has no skin in this game. He is nothing more than a hired gun to do a job. This is what he does. Finds emotional people upset with their representation. He convinces them that he can fix all of the wrongs. Takes their money for awhile, sets up an association, loses a few cases when gets shown the door.

This is the reason that you do not want the same firm giving you advice and also doing your litigation. The union lawyer convinces the board that they can win, then makes a lot of money by going to court. If you have another firm litigating, the union lawyer may be more prudent about giving advice, then thinking about billable hours. If your doctor is a surgeon and keeps telling you that you constantly need surgery it might be time for a second opinion.

USAPA knew his record in court before they hired him. Another loss means nothing to him. The day Lee gets fired is the day I want to see his face. It eventually happens with most of his clients. Check his record. Someday USAPA will have to release the financial records. I would guess that legal costs will number two or three of all association expenses.

This is something that USAPA filed in the DFR suit. It is a letter from Captain Brucia who was the east neutral during arbitration. Not sure why USAPA filed this but they did.

I also wish to make it abundantly clear that I unequivocally support ALPA in the ongoing representation dispute. I was an original member of the IACP at CAL and a member of the Negotiating Committee that produced its first contract. We used the same firm as USAPA who we eventually removed from bargaining. Over time, the limits of an independent union became painfully clear and our membership voted overwhelmingly to join ALPA. I see no benefit for US Airways pilots to repeat the same mistakes we made.

 

[cleardirect]

Is everyone at USAPA on vacation?

It has been four days now but not a mention of the DAL/NWA arbitration.

Not an update in several weeks from some of the domiciles. What’s going on? Didn’t some domiciles have meetings? Where’s the updates?

Everyone overwhelmed? Is the place starting to collapse? Are they all in damage control? Members starting to ask questions?