What's new

US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 12/8-12/15

Status
Not open for further replies.
I doubt seriously if we as a group will "move on" no matter what happens. Arrogance and stupidity brought us LOA 93, the Nic and a variety of other ills.

I have more faith in our pilots, Driver. Well move on. What caused this mess? LOA 93, ALPO in control. NIC, ALPO in control. Other ills, might as well blame them on ALPO too. Regardless how this ends, if we dont move on, its a miserable job for the rest of my gear-jerking career. One thing I say, after LOA 93, I was done with ALPO. I wasnt an ALPO member when the NIC went down, so dont blame me. Or blame me because I didnt "participate." No one but the ALPO-suck-ups on the dole were allowed to participate.

If that isn't enough, the voting pilots of USAPA just voted to reinstate the roll call vote, the single most destructive weapon ever used by our union reps.

Roll call beats letting small domiciles control the union. We saw how that turned out, DCA, LGA, BOS and a split in PIT doing ALPO National bidding. Thats like letting North and South Dakota, Alaska and Montana outvote Pennsylvania. IF the westies join and pay dues, they deserve whatever clout their numbers are. Ive said that over 140 posts. If they dont pay, they get fired.

I don't blame the West pilots one bit for being ticked. We made a deal. We blew it. When it didn't turn out like we wanted, we switched unions to try to undo the result.

Being ticked is no reason to intimidate fellow pilots, deny jump seats and deliberately tie up phones. That was childish at best. WE did NOT make a deal. ALPO made a deal. And the arrogance of our ALPO leaders blew it. I wasnt in ALPO then, but anyone who was can tell you the leadership wasnt representing the rank and file. In fact, what sealed ALPOs fate was the ALPO National/MEC conspiracy that stopped the CLT recalls and fired Dave and Erik. DOH may end up being DOA. As I said before, I really dont care. I do care about all the crap the west pilots were pulling. Yes, we did switch unions. But the NIC was the catalyst, not the cause. ALPO and our MEC was the cause.

The best case scenario is we arbitrate again, either voluntarily or forced in a method similar to what Delta/Northwest went through. More likely we will have the Nic shoved down our throat and have to pay some sort of reparations.

Driver, at risk sounding like a westie supporter, I dont see a do-over. Whats dones done. Our former leadership dug that hole. I dont see any reparations. No loss yet. Now usapa has to figure out how to get us out of that ALPO-dug hole. Its a no-win for them. Two bad choices, end it now with huge concessions (NIC)or drag it on for years with no guarantees. Whatever they decide, Ill back them. Ive got more representation out of usapa than I ever got out of 20 years of alpo.

There was a time when cooler heads might have brought us closer together. I think that time is past. A320 Driver

You should have thought about that when you allowed ALPO to get away with its manuevering that stopped CLT recalls, removed Erik and Dave and couldnt negotiate a contract before the NIC came out. One thing for sure, regardlesss how this turns, ALPO will never see this property again. I dont know who will fight it more, former east or former west. snoop-dog
 
You seem to forget something very important: if Judge Wake rules against you there will be compensatory and punitive damages. He will want to make you pay for your little experiment and you might well find it wasn't worth the effort at all. We can only hope this comes to pass.

Same tired old story, 717. Counting the spoils before the victory. Could have sworn we all decided juries determine damages, not judges. What damages? Are you saying because usapa hasnt done in 7 months what alpo couldnt do in 36 months, get a single contract, that usapa owes damages? and punitive? ygtbk. You putting the cart way before the horse. But lets say somehow usapa is BKed by a jury, do you really want ALPO back on property? Or does it make more sense to work with usapa, get a NIC-controlled contract and have a union that you will inheret in just a few years and will be totally independent from alpo meddling and conflicts-of-interest? All that assumes you win. no guarantee there. snoop-dog
 
Just curious Snoop,

When you were not an ALPA member, did you pay your germane maintenance fees, or are you in arrears to ALPA?
 
Is everyone at USAPA on vacation?


Not an update in several weeks from some of the domiciles. Whats going on? Didnt some domiciles have meetings? Where are the updates?

america wests pilots idea of an update. The following is a america west pilot update in November.

Below is an exerpt from a November 9th update by the america west pilots leaders.

" is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure.â€￾ James Madison, Federalist Papers #51.

President Madisons words echo a concern which has deep roots in a branch of philosophy known as political philosophy- the study of balancing justice with political order. With the prodding of early Greek philosophers, the people of Athens experimented with a new form of political order at the turn of the fifth century, B.C. This new order was quite different from previous political orders where power was concentrated in a monarch or a dictator, with successors being chosen by blood, decree, or civil war. This new political order granted the people a supreme political power through an electoral system. Today this system is known as a democracy,￾ and in the fifth century B.C. it worked for about two decades until its structural weaknesses became apparent. A tension had developed between two parties: the rich and the poor. Though the leadership was elected by the populace, it did not take long for that leadership to focus on what was best for them, which at that time became the enforcement of debts as many Athenians fell behind in their obligations. At that time, it was common for people to secure loans using themselves as collateral. When the elected leadership refused to alter debtor laws, Athens boiled to the brink of a civil war.

Fortunately, a mediator named Solon was appointed and he was able to mediate many changes in both the laws and the organization of the government. Solon's greatest contribution was figuring out the inherent weakness that would occur in a democracy if there were not any checks against the ruling class. He discovered that without these checks, democracy was just another way of selecting a new set of tyrants. He therefore instituted a number of reforms which tempered the situation for about a decade. However, the checks he created were not quite powerful enough, and it was not long before tyranny again emerged. Despite this failure of democracy in fifth century Athens, the world gained an understanding of distributive justice “ the idea that people of all classes must be treated fairly and according to their individual merit. Without distributive justice, there would be tension and unrest. Whats more, we learned from the Athens experiment that it was a fallacy to assume that one particular class could be trusted to determine what is best for all classes. The reason is simple, because it points to what the vast majority of philosophers accept as the essence of man - the primacy of his self-interest. The temptation for the elected class in Greece to preserve their self interest was no different than any of the ruling classes since.

In the United States, the Founding Fathers clearly understood this and therefore set up a Constitutional Democracy, which may also be called a liberal democracy.￾ The essence of our liberal democracy is that our civil liberties exist independent of the electoral process. We have our civil liberties in America not because we go to the voting booth every two years, but because our Constitution limits the power of those who are elected. The system balances power between three branches, but more importantly, it prevents a simple majority from using its power to completely dominate a minority. Without these safeguards, it would be easy to see how our democracy could devolve into a tyranny just assuredly as ancient Greece did in the fifth century. For example, consider the situation where a majority of the electorate “ which in reality is women “ decided to elect leaders who ran on the platform of removing the right to vote from men. If we were to abide strictly by the wishes of the majority, then men could say a goodbye to having any voice in government if it were not for the protections written into our Constitution. Our Founding Fathers were aware of the possibility where 51% of the vote could produce 100% of the decisions. There is actually a term for this phenomenon, and its called the tyranny of the majority. Sound government cannot exist without a system to distribute fairness and equity among all classes. James Madison surely understood this:

What bitter anguish would not the people of Athens have often escaped if their government had contained so provident a safeguard against the tyranny of their own passions? Popular liberty might then have escaped the indelible reproach of decreeing to the same citizens the hemlock on one day and statues on the next." Federalist Paper #63.

Hemlock on one day, statues on the next. That sounds similar to USAPA self-serving positions on everything from seniority, to their concept of how a union should operate. First, there is their commitment to Date-of-Hire seniority. They speak out of both sides of their mouth depending on what is most convenient to their self-appointed leaders. They insist on forcing date-of-hire on the West, yet refuse to acknowledge date-of-hire to the Empire and Trump Shuttle pilots. They argue in one venue that date of hire is a creature of contract and is therefore negotiable, yet then refuse to negotiate a change in their own seniority list simply out of self-interest (and rank hypocrisy).

Second, the leaders of USAPA feel they can defy what every ontological philosopher has known since Socrates; that is, USAPA somehow thinks that they alone can distribute fairness and equity. Although there are arguably exceptions to this fact about the human condition “ Jesus Christ, Ghandi, and Mother Teresa “ the problem for the USAPA leadership is that their own actions and words obliterate that possibility. ""



Yea, keep sending your money to these boys west pilots, they are obviously using your donations for agricultural purposes.

Should you continue to write checks to this group while you are getting furloughed and demoted? A lot of talk, not a lot of walk. Ok Spartans, I warned you.

You have heard the expression, "beware of Greeks bearing gifts." With these impostor Greeks the expressions should be, "beware of Greeks burdening you with legal bills."
 
Once again proving beyond a shadow of a doubt why AWA was the place where you went when you couldn't get a job anywhere else.

A home town judge might rule in your favor and you think it will be over? Dream on.


Boeing Driver


Speaking as a "bottom of the barrel".."rookie".."had not soloed when you got hired"..."childish".."me generation"..proud America West Pilot, I would like to point out that many of our pilots were hired although they had USAIR on their resume. Ask any former USAirways pilots hired pre-merger and I will bet you that 95% would say getting hired at America West was a step up, at least that is what the ones I know say.
 
Just curious Snoop,

When you were not an ALPA member, did you pay your germane maintenance fees, or are you in arrears to ALPA?

So let me get this straight. Megapoop wasn't an ALPA member at the time, accepts no responsibility for His former CBA, but NOW claims that the West better join up with USAPA, "become part of the solution" or get fired?

If this isn't the epitomy of Easti double speak I don't know what is. One can't commit a crime, change your name and expect the law to accept the excuse, "it wasn't me"

On one hand "the" USAPA is now the almighty powerful and singular bargaining agent, capable of whatever actions it deems appropriate, all the while hiding behind a twisted, tortured version of the RLA.

However, when ALP "O" was here, no such authority existed.

Good Luck, Be a good Union pilot, and ready those pens against those meager checkbooks to cut the West guys their damages checks.
 
america wests pilots idea of a update. The following is a america west pilot update in November.

Below is an exerpt from a November 9th update by the america west pilots leaders.

" “It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure.†James Madison, Federalist Papers #51.

President Madison’s words echo a concern which has deep roots in a branch of philosophy known as political philosophy- the study of balancing justice with political order. With the prodding of early Greek philosophers, the people of Athens experimented with a new form of political order at the turn of the fifth century, B.C. This new order was quite different from previous political orders where power was concentrated in a monarch or a dictator, with successors being chosen by blood, decree, or civil war. This new political order granted the people a supreme political power through an electoral system. Today this system is known as “democracy,†and in the fifth century B.C. it worked for about two decades until its structural weaknesses became apparent. A tension had developed between two parties: the rich and the poor. Though the leadership was elected by the populace, it did not take long for that leadership to focus on what was best for them, which at that time became the enforcement of debts as many Athenians fell behind in their obligations. At that time, it was common for people to secure loans using themselves as collateral. When the elected leadership refused to alter debtor laws, Athens boiled to the brink of a civil war.

Fortunately, a mediator named Solon was appointed and he was able to mediate many changes in both the laws and the organization of the government. Solon's greatest contribution was figuring out the inherent weakness that would occur in a democracy if there were not any “checks†against the ruling class. He discovered that without these checks, democracy was just another way of selecting a new set of tyrants. He therefore instituted a number of reforms which tempered the situation for about a decade. However, the checks he created were not quite powerful enough, and it was not long before tyranny again emerged. Despite this failure of democracy in fifth century Athens, the world gained an understanding of distributive justice – the idea that people of all classes must be treated fairly and according to their individual merit. Without distributive justice, there would be tension and unrest. What’s more, we learned from the Athens experiment that it was a fallacy to assume that one particular class could be trusted to determine what is best for all classes. The reason is simple, because it points to what the vast majority of philosophers accept as the essence of man - the primacy of his self-interest. The temptation for the elected class in Greece to preserve their self interest was no different than any of the ruling classes since.

In the United States, the Founding Fathers clearly understood this and therefore set up a Constitutional Democracy, which may also be called a “liberal democracy.†The essence of our liberal democracy is that our civil liberties exist independent of the electoral process. We have our civil liberties in America not because we go to the voting booth every two years, but because our Constitution limits the power of those who are elected. The system balances power between three branches, but more importantly, it prevents a simple majority from using its power to completely dominate a minority. Without these safeguards, it would be easy to see how our democracy could devolve into a tyranny just assuredly as ancient Greece did in the fifth century. For example, consider the situation where a majority of the electorate – which in reality is women – decided to elect leaders who ran on the platform of removing the right to vote from men. If we were to abide strictly by the wishes of the majority, then men could say “good bye†to having any voice in government if it were not for the protections written into our Constitution. Our Founding Fathers were aware of the possibility where 51% of the vote could produce 100% of the decisions. There is actually a term for this phenomenon, and it’s called the “tyranny of the majority.†Sound government cannot exist without a system to distribute fairness and equity among all classes. James Madison surely understood this:

“What bitter anguish would not the people of Athens have often escaped if their government had contained so provident a safeguard against the tyranny of their own passions? Popular liberty might then have escaped the indelible reproach of decreeing to the same citizens the hemlock on one day and statues on the next." Federalist Paper #63.

Hemlock on one day, statues on the next. That sounds similar to USAPA’s self-serving positions on everything from seniority, to their concept of how a union should operate. First, there is their commitment to Date-of-Hire seniority. They speak out of both sides of their mouth depending on what is most convenient to their self-appointed leaders. They insist on forcing date-of-hire on the West, yet refuse to acknowledge date-of-hire to the Empire and Trump Shuttle pilots. They argue in one venue that date of hire is a “creature of contract†and is therefore negotiable, yet then refuse to negotiate a change in their own seniority list simply out of self-interest (and rank hypocrisy).

Second, the leaders of USAPA feel they can defy what every ontological philosopher has known since Socrates; that is, USAPA somehow thinks that they alone can distribute fairness and equity. Although there are arguably exceptions to this fact about the human condition – Jesus Christ, Ghandi, and Mother Teresa – the problem for the USAPA leadership is that their own actions and words obliterate that possibility. ""



Yea, keep sending your money to these boys west pilots, they are obviously using your donations for agricultural purposes

Sorry, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Say that again, (yawning)?????????????????
 
You don't understand. USAPA never assured the elimination of the Nicolau list. It's simply giving it it's best shot.

Did USAPA say that negotiating seniority was no different than negotiating crew meals?

If they did not assure it, they sure implied it.
 
Sorry, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Say that again, (yawning)?????????????????

You forgot to add my last few words in your quote, remember these please.

"Should you continue to write checks to this group while you are getting furloughed and demoted? A lot of talk, not a lot of walk. Ok Spartans, I warned you.

You have heard the expression, "beware of Greeks bearing gifts." With these impostor Greeks the expressions should be, "beware of Greeks burdening you with legal bills."
 
If the Nicolau shame survives intact, that's that. Time to move on knowing we've given our best shot at eliminating that old man's embarrassment.

Was the Delta arbitrator an embarrassing old man too?

USAPA is wrong. Except for USAPA supporters, everyone knows it.
 
Yea, keep sending your money to these boys west pilots, they are obviously using your donations for agricultural purposes.

Should you continue to write checks to this group while you are getting furloughed and demoted? A lot of talk, not a lot of walk. Ok Spartans, I warned you.

You have heard the expression, "beware of Greeks bearing gifts." With these impostor Greeks the expressions should be, "beware of Greeks burdening you with legal bills."

Well Nos that was a nice update to reminisce through. Your point? I asked a question about USAPA and where they have gone. Why the lack of information flowing from the current CBA.

You choose to ignore and deflect a legitimate question. If you do not know the answer then ignore the question or find the answer and report back. But an adult version of “yeah but look what the other kid didâ€￾ is a waste of everyone’s time.

If USAPA is melting down that would be good to know. If there are in extended meetings trying to figure a way out of this mess let the represented pilots know. But to completely ignore a very significant event like another major merger award in the middle of our merger and law suit. Seems to me irresponsible. At the very least publish it to the pilots and let them read and decide for themselves. If you don’t know it was relative seniority not DOH.

Plugging your ears and chanting no,no,no,no does no good. No need to spin the award. No need for an explanation. Release it and take questions. Where are the updates from the domicile meetings?

If you don’t know say so. This is about USAPA nothing else.

As far as legal bills. Great advice. Have you asked USAPA what they are spending? Failed RICO, Empire/Trump, DFR class action, more to come.
 
So let me get this straight. Megapoop wasn't an ALPA member at the time, accepts no responsibility for His former CBA, but NOW claims that the West better join up with USAPA, "become part of the solution" or get fired?

"Megaxoop?" Interesting preversion of my handle. Im sure it makes you feel good. Ill consider the source. Since you dont read for comprehension, try this, I never said anything close to "become part of the solution or get fired." I said pay dues, MX fee, whatever, or get fired. BTW, its your side thats encouraging westies to join now. if you dont, I dont care. but if you dont join, you dont get vote or input. This is a union you inheret in a few years and dont have to deal with alpo.

On one hand "the" USAPA is now the almighty powerful and singular bargaining agent, capable of whatever actions it deems appropriate, all the while hiding behind a twisted, tortured version of the RLA. However, when ALP "O" was here, no such authority existed.

I never hinted anything like that, Yet. But keep it up. alpo was conflicted, trying to represent both sides while representing neither. alpos arrogance cooked its goose.

Good Luck, Be a good Union pilot, and ready those pens against those meager checkbooks to cut the West guys their damages checks.

Regardless of what you might think, not even a federal judge can force a rank and file membr to write a check. If there are damages that the membership doesnt want to pay, usapa goes bk. bring back alpo for all I care. see who alpo sides with in the LCC/UAL merger.

924PS, pretty sure I was always current with mx fee, never got nasty letters. alpo did drop me from dues check-off, had to send them checks. ALPO did offer dues refuznics the option: pay or be fired. Remember when that happened to Jamie, passing thru CLT back a few years ago? Met by the CP and a union rep and a promissory note. snoop-dog
 
Once again proving beyond a shadow of a doubt why AWA was the place where you went when you couldn't get a job anywhere else.

A home town judge might rule in your favor and you think it will be over? Dream on.

I have serious news for you: he went to Harvard law, and by the time you become an appointed District Court judge, you probably either don't suffer from a "home town" mentality, or are smart enough to make the opinion appeal-proof.

If you think calling the guy a "homer" in front of the Circuit court, even the ninth circus is the basis for a good appellate strategy, you have either been smoking Seeham's good stuff or are dreaming.
 
smart enough to make the opinion appeal-proof.


:lol:

"opinion"... and "appeal-proof"... isn't that an oxymoron?

The only "appeal-proof" position is taken and no vacancy is expected for sometime to come.
 
Once again proving beyond a shadow of a doubt why AWA was the place where you went when you couldn't get a job anywhere else.




Boeing Driver

True at times. Also true of Allegheny, Mowawk, & Lake Central. And US Airways in 07-08.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top