US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[BoeingBoy]

USAPA didn't sign any contract.

How's life without LOA 93? USAPA didn't sign it either...

And parts aren't parts - bases are subsets of one whole. LAS and PHX are subsets of the former HP while BOS/LGA/PHL/DCA/CLT are all subsets of the former US. This merger is about the combination of 2 distinct and separate outfits, or sets. HP wasn't a subset of US nor vice versa.

Jim

 

[EyeInTheSky]

You're kidding! Come back Ableoneable!!

EDITED BY MODERATOR

Later,
Eye

 

[73320]

You miss the point. No one in this business can say they are "owed" something. But DOH and it's reasonable facsimile longevity, by definition, is something each of us has earned. It's value is self evident, readily quantifiable and not vulnerable to interpretation.

And so I am owed nothing, but I am entitled to whatever comes before the guy who has fewer cycles on him spent working for the same outfit.

As LAS is downsized, are those pilots being absorbed into PHX by relative position? It seems to be philosophically dishonest to embrace DOH as the holy grail for absolutely everything - except when it comes time to merge with another pilot group.

I agree that other metrics such as reasonable expectations, differing fleet types, etc. should be considered and addressed. But to discard DOH entirely, to subordinate it to these other factors is just plain wrong and ultimately doomed to failure.

Piedmont,

I agree with much of what you posted above. You are online now, lets see if we can come up with reasonable solutions (not that it will matter) to this mess. This thread and merger is a Sisyphean tragedy.

How about we start with the heavies, I will give you all of your heavies fenced until your junior FO at merger date has the opportunity before a single one of us from the B squad can bid them. All new heavies open to bid via the Nic.

You can and should keep 80-90% of east attrition, but not all of it. East bases bid DOH, west bases bid NIC. Is this reasonable?

 

[FL430]

So if you sign a contract to buy a house, sign all the documents at the closing, but never move in you can demand your money back?

USAPA inherited a completed seniority integration. Not having a joint contract doesn't undo that, but just means that the integrated list can't be used yet.

Of course, USAPA is free to try to negotiate a new integrated list, and the West pilots are then free to sue USAPA for DFW.

Jim

Jim
Its DFR not DFW. Your errors are mounting. You post on the United board concerning the PBGC and use condescending language chastizing another poster and low and behold you were the one wrong on the issue.
You post here often lambasting your former co-workers while you benefitted from the seniority of the past. It is easy for you the armchair quarterback to side with the west because you havent a dog in this fight. To us this Nicolai is so one sided ( a windfall to the west ) it is worth fighting to the death.
It is obvious you are upset about not making the age 65 window and you now spend all waking hours posting about something that doesnt affect you. You benefitted for years using your DOH seniority now you say placing a 1998 AWA hire ( that is typically 10 years younger ) ahead of a 1986 Pi hire that is B@-@/=;t. You are just bitter and resentful that you got pushed out of the cockpit by the age 60 rule. If you were in our position i think your attitude would be different. AWA and US seniority demographics were so different we should have never signed on to arbitration. That was the last straw and is largely the reason ALPA is gone. The majority has spoken - it will be DOH, permanent separate ops, or something else that i cannot say on this board ( that will become exceedingly clear if the NIC is thrown at us ). Just sit back and watch.

 

[73320]

Jim
To us this Nicolai is so one sided ( a windfall to the west ) it is worth fighting to the death.
AWA and US seniority demographics were so different we should have never signed on to arbitration. That was the last straw and is largely the reason ALPA is gone. The majority has spoken - it will be DOH, permanent separate ops, or something else that i cannot say on this board ( that will become exceedingly clear if the NIC is thrown at us ). Just sit back and watch.

OK 430,

Whats the solution. Did we get this one sided arbitration because you would not move off DOH, and get more for your side? How about now? If the NIC is what it is to your side, (not something the west forced on you but the 3rd party results) imagine now you are on the B squad and your union is now trying to shove DOH down your throat. If you cant imagine it, I can help you....it is NIC X 2 for the west. Is my previous post reasonable? What should be done now?

 

[73320]

Anybody from the varsity team want to take a stab at a reasonable solution (not that it will matter) to this mess?

 

[traderjake]

FL430 -

"The majority has spoken - it will be DOH, permanent separate ops, or something else that i cannot say on this board ( that will become exceedingly clear if the NIC is thrown at us ). Just sit back and watch."

What color is the sky in your world?

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

 

[FL430]

OK 430,

Whats the solution. Did we get this one sided arbitration because you would not move off DOH, and get more for your side? How about now? If the NIC is what it is to your side, (not something the west forced on you but the 3rd party results) imagine now you are on the B squad and your union is now trying to shove DOH down your throat. If you cant imagine it, I can help you....it is NIC X 2 for the west. Is my previous post reasonable? What should be done now?

73320

I feel a fair award is one where both sides are equally pissed. That is definately not the case here. Please do not feel that i blame any of you westies. I blame our arrogant former alpa guys and Nicolai for this mess. I am sorry for you guys having to be dragged along in this union mess. It should have not come to this. I feel your proposal is a fair compromise. In a past posting I proposed something similar to what you say. I still do not know what would be fair concerning furloughs though. Has anyone seen a reasonable solution for this. I would start a suggestion to just not furlough anyone and take a decrease in pay to finance ( or subsidize ) pay for furloughees. I hold no ill will for anyone west except for maybe Dougie who is capatalizing on all of this. All the while loosing $ 500 mill plus on bad fuel hedging and another $ 411 mill on the stupid junk bond investment. Wow, 911 mill plus in just less than one year, now that is true talent right¿

 

[FL430]

FL430 -

"The majority has spoken - it will be DOH, permanent separate ops, or something else that i cannot say on this board ( that will become exceedingly clear if the NIC is thrown at us ). Just sit back and watch."

What color is the sky in your world?

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

The color of the sky is black - and if you would pay attention to the time ( at least in the US ) you would know that it is night. Your comment is irrelavent to the discussion.

Your attempt at defining democracy is incorrect. Try using a dictionary.

INAPPROPRIATE COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

 

[BoeingBoy]

<insert usual demeaning remarks and false assumptions about anyone who doesn't agree here>

You're right - it should have been DFR instead of DFW.

BTW, it's "haven't" not "havent", "Nicolau" not "Nicolai", "one-sided" not "one sided", "doesn't" not "doesnt", "benefited" not "benefitted", and "I" not "i". You know what they say about people in glass houses throwing rocks...

Jim

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Touche!

 

[Elevation]

You're right - it should have been DFR instead of DFW.

BTW, it's "haven't" not "havent", "Nicolau" not "Nicolai", "one-sided" not "one sided", "doesn't" not "doesnt", "benefited" not "benefitted", and "I" not "i". You know what they say about people in glass houses throwing rocks...

Jim

That's what you call being pwned! ouch!

 

[nic4us]

Nic... no there were 3 conditions... the most important of which you neglected to state...was that the NIC was incorporated into a joint contract that was then ratified by the majority of the pilot group...

You are correct, but actually there were more restriction. There were the 5 tenants of ALPA merger policy, which were followed. Then there were the restrictions of the TA in order for the company to accept the award, those to were followed, and the compan said as much in their letter accepting the decision.

So we are left with one last obstacle before implementation, as you point out, a joint contract. But that joint contract must include NIC, or USAPA is in violation of their DFR. Plain and simple.

Had we ratified a joint contract prior to NIC, it would already be the law of the land, incorporated into the contract before anyone ever saw it, so in reality we are back to just two conditions, Final and Binding.

 

[sharktooth]

Had we ratified a joint contract prior to NIC, it would already be the law of the land, incorporated into the contract before anyone ever saw it, so in reality we are back to just two conditions, Final and Binding.

Actually, you have a couple of other "conditions", but bringing up one, that the controlling union, in this case, USAPA, must sign the ratified merger agreement(s) (which, BTW, may or may not include the "nic" - negotiable according to the west attorney, remember?) would pretty much sink your arguments.

Have a good day with your day dreams......

 

[Piedmont1984]

Piedmont,

I agree with much of what you posted above. You are online now, lets see if we can come up with reasonable solutions (not that it will matter) to this mess. This thread and merger is a Sisyphean tragedy.

How about we start with the heavies, I will give you all of your heavies fenced until your junior FO at merger date has the opportunity before a single one of us from the B squad can bid them. All new heavies open to bid via the Nic.

You can and should keep 80-90% of east attrition, but not all of it. East bases bid DOH, west bases bid NIC. Is this reasonable?

73320

I'm afraid the die is cast and this will have to play out in the courts. My hope is that pure fatigue, the prospect of a long drawn out and expensive court process and the realization of money and benefits being squandered while we slug it out will propel both sides to seek some sort of compromise.

Much of USAPA's hierarchy will be populated with new names in the coming year. Many on our side have been advising your side to join and become engaged. This is not rocket science and an eastie should not be telling you this, but in the interest of reasonable compromise consider the following.

The west has been claiming that it's pilots are 100% unified on this issue. OTOH the east has a long tradition of fractious relationships, north vs south, PHL vs CLT, RC4, Empire, Trump, etc.

I would expect any candidate for USAPA leadership will get a few hundred votes, maybe several hundred. That would be a good showing for the east.

But 1700+ votes for one candidate? or for all 4 leadership positions? plus PHX and LAS reps? as well as the various committee structures? Just think about it. The west would run the union and have enormous influence to have it's concerns addressed and the C&BL's changed. You could achieve much of what you seek without ever paying an attorney.

Instead, your leadership has convinced you to scorn USAPA and put all your chips on the Nic award. Remember the adage about honey vs vinegar.

But first you must join, pay dues and be in good standing. The train is about to leave the station. The barn door is unlatched.