US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[cubfan]

Piedmont,

I agree with much of what you posted above. You are online now, lets see if we can come up with reasonable solutions (not that it will matter) to this mess. This thread and merger is a Sisyphean tragedy.

How about we start with the heavies, I will give you all of your heavies fenced until your junior FO at merger date has the opportunity before a single one of us from the B squad can bid them. All new heavies open to bid via the Nic.

You can and should keep 80-90% of east attrition, but not all of it. East bases bid DOH, west bases bid NIC. Is this reasonable?

Ok, but what happens if the west has to downsize more, west are forced to east bases, or to keep it fair visa versa, where are you placed in other bases?

 

[cleardirect]

73320

I'm afraid the die is cast and this will have to play out in the courts. My hope is that pure fatigue, the prospect of a long drawn out and expensive court process and the realization of money and benefits being squandered while we slug it out will propel both sides to seek some sort of compromise.

Piedmont,

Yes this will play out in the courts. But it is going to happen very quickly. On or before February 17, 2008. We will have an answer. However USAPA has already stated that when they lose this trial that there are going to appeal. How many times does the east need to be told something? When is the east going to come to the realization of the money and benefits that you are costs us and yourselves?

Much of USAPA's hierarchy will be populated with new names in the coming year. Many on our side have been advising your side to join and become engaged. This is not rocket science and an eastie should not be telling you this, but in the interest of reasonable compromise consider the following.

That may be true. But if they are still the most radical people that the east can find what difference will it make?

The west has been claiming that it's pilots are 100% unified on this issue. OTOH the east has a long tradition of fractious relationships, north vs south, PHL vs CLT, RC4, Empire, Trump, etc.

I would expect any candidate for USAPA leadership will get a few hundred votes, maybe several hundred. That would be a good showing for the east.

But 1700+ votes for one candidate? or for all 4 leadership positions? plus PHX and LAS reps? as well as the various committee structures? Just think about it. The west would run the union and have enormous influence to have it's concerns addressed and the C&BL's changed. You could achieve much of what you seek without ever paying an attorney.

“The west could run the union.â€￾ You are going to have to show me how that works. The east is the majority. We have been told that many times. Change the C&BL. This last vote it took over 1700 to change it to the biased document that it is now. If all of us voted we still could not change it. If all of us joined we get 5 domicile reps. The east has 12 reps. Less than 30% of the total. What important committees will the west be able to get on?

Instead, your leadership has convinced you to scorn USAPA and put all your chips on the Nic award. Remember the adage about honey vs vinegar.

This is where the east is missing the big picture. There is no “leadershipâ€￾ over here. We have not elected no one has self appointed anyone, there is no structure. What we have is 1800 individuals that can all see the damage that the east is doing to us and our careers. No one needed to “tellâ€￾ us we were being hurt. Everyone came to that conclusion on our own. We have some people that have stepped up to help the group.

I would remind you of the same thing. The tyranny of the majority ignoring binding arbitration and voting out our union. Filing a multimillion dollar law suit against 18 individual pilots for federal RICO. After the election, not holding a meeting anywhere near PHX for more than 7 months. Then showing up at a federal building a long way from the airport with cops for security. Does USAPA leadership bring cops to your other domicile meetings? Attempting to fire 4 west pilots. Could you point out the compromise from USAPA? Where has been the honey from the leadership towards the west.

Sending threatening letters demanding dues payment is not using honey. Coming down to our crew room and filing a hostile work complaint with Hogg because we are expressing our frustration, is that working with us? The crew room looks very bare after the “leadershipâ€￾ visit. More like communist rule. Any opposition will be dealt with harshly.

But first you must join, pay dues and be in good standing. The train is about to leave the station. The barn door is unlatched.

Oh yes once again “pay your duesâ€￾ It is the mantra from USAPA. They started it before they were elected. What is the problem? USAPA keeps saying that they have plenty of money without the west.

Pay our dues. For what? For a contract that is the same or worse that what we have. Go to the little matrix from USAPA. Count up how many items say west contract. So the east gets 90% of the benefit from this contract what do we get? The committees are populated with east pilots what do we get? The BPR is stacked with east members what do we get? You want DOH what do we get?

This goes under the category of be careful what you wish for. What if 1700 west pilots join and we do start demanding representation? Demanding to be on committees? Will we be told that sorry that committees is full maybe next time? Will the BPR throw an east member off of the negotiating committee to make room for one of our own? We will be the largest base. We will demand services.

 

[73320]

73320

I'm afraid the die is cast and this will have to play out in the courts. My hope is that pure fatigue, the prospect of a long drawn out and expensive court process and the realization of money and benefits being squandered while we slug it out will propel both sides to seek some sort of compromise.

Piedmont,

If you had a DOH NIC and we toppled your union and put in place the Cactus pilots club with stapling as our protocol, I am absolutely certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the east pilots would be acting in a like manner. The sugar vs honey is laughable, look in the mirror, your unions first order of business is multiple law suits against its own pilots, likely a precedent. I have been amazed that you have chosen Seham given the total destruction of labor he has left in his wake. Do any of you have any misgivings about him?

Now back to potential solutions. This question once again is for all of the regular east posters on here,(and west too) snoop,oldie,pi,Jim,east etc...

Is and WAS an acceptable solution the fencing of east heavies, 80-90% of east attrition protected for east pilots, plus DOH bidding in east domiciles, Nic bidding in west. All new equipment including 190's open to bid? Would that have been fair and reasonable, protecting and crediting what you brought to the table? Does this allow the west pilots the opportunity for movement (if there is any)?

 

[73320]

Ok, but what happens if the west has to downsize more, west are forced to east bases, or to keep it fair visa versa, where are you placed in other bases?

Cub,

Great question - difficult answers. What do you suggest? I would opt for the solution that has the least damage to those affected. The big picture for me has always been a reasonable sharing of the gain and pain that this merger has brought down upon us.I think FL430 suggested lowering the line minimums to prevent some furloughs. I would be in favor of that.

 

[PA18]

But DOH and it's reasonable facsimile longevity, by definition, is something each of us has earned. It's value is self evident, readily quantifiable and not vulnerable to interpretation.

And so I am owed nothing, but I am entitled to whatever comes before the guy who has fewer cycles on him spent working for the same outfit.

DOH as the holy grail for absolutely everything - except when it comes time to merge with another pilot group.

Funny, you didn't feel that way in 1986, when you were perfectly content to see an Empire pilot who was hired nine years before you get stapled several hundred numbers below you.

Or in 1989, when you felt you had gotten screwed by Aritrator Kagel, when you weren't allowed to leapfrog above a USAir pilot who had also been hired nine years before you.

 

[73320]

It seems clear that I am a thread killer. Not much response to what would have been or could be a reasonable solution to the problems that we were/are faced with in this integration. It seems to me that the principles are much more interested in a land grab and emotionally laden food fight. This is the reality and the long term MO that has been going on in the east for many years. That is what happens when downsizing and pay cuts take root. The blame game kicks in and the spiral continues. Society at large is about to enter this world. We will be lucky or perhaps unlucky if the company survives.

You folks have spent countless hours engaged in this toxic debate on this board, but apparently are at a loss for words regarding possible solutions. Stop making sense?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Personally, the first order of business is deciding on fair method of integrating the basic lists. As long as one side will accept nothing but DOH and the other nothing but the Nic, there's not much point in discussing conditions and restrictions since they're dependent on how the lists are put together.

If the posters on this board are representative of the two pilot groups, the only way to get past that first step is a judge.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

What we think is irrelevent. What did Nicolau think? What will judge Wake think about the "binding" in "Binding Arbitration"? Why do you keep trying to argue that which has already been decided?

Because of your post where you claim to have the answer to career expectations.

 

[Metroyet]

The majority has spoken - it will be DOH,

HHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Good one! Let's just see what the Federal Judge has to say about it.

Did you notice USAPA filed a "motion to reconsider" this morning? Do you think that bodes well for your ridiculous assertion that the "majority" can dictate career terms to the minority? 🙄

 

[Metroyet]

73320
The train is about to leave the station. The barn door is unlatched.

We'll get on some kind of train whenever it suits our needs. Right now it doesn't. You guys have been trying everything you can think of to "move your train" without the west since day one. Where has it gotten you? In front of a Federal Judge who is openly discussing USAPA (read East pilots) paying damages to the West.

Your train conductor and his little tough guy crew sold all of you a bag of lies. I suggest to you to Get off that train ASAP as It's headed straight off a cliff.

 

[USPHX]

we should have never signed on to arbitration.

"But you did Blanche, YOU DID!"

And now you say had your fingers crossed behind you're back..... so it doesn't really count. What a bunch of pathetic cry babies. As a west flight attendant, I can't wait until I have the pleasure to fly with you collective bunch of losers. NOT

 

[Pi brat]

Which is why the "I'm owed something because of my DOH" is basically meaningless...

Jim

&^%^&&^^-That is the sound of me beating my head against the wall. I get it Jim, you don't think DOH is the fair way to settle a seniority integration. I have agreed with you that it has issues, I just think that with conditions and restrictions it is closer to fair than the Nic award. I have also agreed that it doesn't matter what I think, it was out of my hands for the last few years and will be in the future. My comment was to 717, who seems to have all the answers and that I do not agree with.

 

[Pi brat]

As a west flight attendant, I can't wait until I have the pleasure to fly with you collective bunch of losers. NOT

You might enjoy flying with people that treat you as professionals, try to make your job better and try to look our for you. Maybe not. Since the AFA dictated DOH, I doubt we will see you out east.

Nice signature.

 

[cleardirect]

You might enjoy flying with people that treat you as professionals, try to make your job better and try to look our for you. Maybe not. Since the AFA dictated DOH, I doubt we will see you out east.

Nice signature.

Pi Brat,

The F/A already do that when now flying with the west pilots.

Just what are you not so subtlety implying? That the west pilots do not treat our F/A with respect? That we do not take care of them?

If you knew anything about us or the way we work together you would know what a foolish statement you just made.

 

[BoeingBoy]

&^%^&&^^-That is the sound of me beating my head against the wall. I get it Jim, you don't think DOH is the fair way to settle a seniority integration. I have agreed with you that it has issues, I just think that with conditions and restrictions it is closer to fair than the Nic award.

Unfortunately, all the arguments against NIC boil down to "It's not DOH." That does nothing to bridge the chasm between the two sides, even here where it probably doesn't matter anyway.

Jim